Future of IRC

Rob_ · Idler Joined: 13 Dec 2003 Posts: 309

just curious, but why should a network which has nothing but warez rooms be taken down, yet a network with "one or two" warez rooms and some chat rooms be left alone? surely they are equally as bad from a legal point of view? (IANAL)

katsklaw · Guru Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 1122

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353

Honestly, I prefer having the networks that are 99% warez. If all the warez idiots are there, then perhaps they won't be on the networks that people actually use to chat. Meaning, keep all the idiots in a herd Smile

katsklaw · Guru Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 1122

lol .. a one-stop-warrant-shop huh? ... good idea. I figure if every Netadmin that really dislikes warez on their net (not the ones that say they hate warez but do nothing about it) .. then all we would have left are all chat nets and all warez nets ... but that's in a perfect world :/

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353

Well since people here have all sorts of different ideas about what is wrong with IRC networks, I think I should provide my list of rules to having a successful IRC server. These are not things I thought of just now, these are ideas I've taken time to review over my years on IRC. Due note, however, these rules were obtained in a sort of trial-and-error fashion, meaning, much I what I have learned is from failing, and from the failings of others Smile

1.) Have rules for opers as well as users
- Most oper arguments start because of judgement calls, two opers disagree over whether an action should have been taken. The best way to prevent such arguments is to have clear network rules about what actions should be taken when. That way, the need for judgement calls is reduced. They cannot not be eliminated (there will always be situations you didn't think of), but they can be reduced.

2.) Always enforce the rules
- This relates to rule 1. If the rule is 50%+1 of server admins must vote to accept the link, then that should be enforced ALWAYS. If the rule says it requires a vote of 50%+1 of netadmins to remove a gline set by someone else, then always do that. I've seen several networks fall apart because netadmins decide they are gods and can do whatever they want. If it is clear what powers they have, then there is always recourse when they abuse them. Additionally, if the rules are always enforced, then the rules are fair. If each person is judged in the same manner, then no one will feel as though they are being treated unfairly.

3.) Know what to do when the rules fail
- The rules can never account for every situation, and when the rules fail, it is often a source of conflict. Therefore, there should be a way to add, remove, and change rules. This will allow your network to change as new issues present themselves.

4.) Majority rules
- Many networks give netadmins some kind of "special" power to override anything. This is a tremendous source of problem. I always use the US government (since it is what I am most familiar with) as an example. No single person ever has the power to prevent a bill from becoming a law. The Congress votes on it and 50%+1 must say yes, then it goes to the President. If the President says no, that's not the end, Congress can override that. And when a bill becomes law, then the Supreme Court comes in and can decide if the law is Constitutional. Again, not one person, but nine. IRC should be similar. Having a majority vote of netadmins to override something is one thing, allowing a single person to have absolute power is another. Remember, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

5.) NEVER merge networks
- The majority of merges never work. The main reason to merge is to gain new users, but all of the issues involved with a merge are often overlooked. Who becomes the netadmin? Who has access to services? Which network runs the services? What happens when two users have the same nickname? What happens when the network rules collide? etc. As a result, most mergers are doomed to failure. Remember that IRC is not like a business. When businesses merge, it is a very long process and one sealed by law; it is not something thrown together with no recourse when it fails.

6.) Don't just link anyone with a server
- Take some time to do your homework. Ensure that the information you were given about a server is accurate. I don't know how many UK T3 servers turned out to be US DSL servers after doing a little inspection. Also, try to get references. Was this server on a network previously? If so, why did it leave? How much experience does the admin have?

7.) Have a waiting period for new links
- Don't link someone the same day they asked. Wait a week or so. This tends to weed out those who really have no intention of staying linked, and also those who will make bad admins (impatient, impulsive, etc.)

8.) Opers should NOT be friends
- This goes against everything everyone has ever been told, but there is a certain logic to it. Friends will get away with more than others will. If a friend punched you in the arm, it's a friendly joke. If a complete stranger did it, you want him in jail. The same happens on IRC, you tend to let friends get away with more than you would let others get away with. Of course, making strangers opers is also a bad idea. The best way to pick opers is by finding those who have experience and are knowledgable, that is not necessarily someone you are friends with.

9.) Ownership should be by the network, not individuals
- When fights do occur, problems arise because different people own different network-wide features. For example, one person pays for the website, another for the shell for services, another for the DNS, etc. If one of those people decides to leave, the damage they can do is tremendous (I've seen everything from redirecting DNS to DALnet, to changing the website to porn, to stealing all the passwords and using them to try to hack financial websites that users may use). The best way to do it is to have some kind of legal contract, but that is often impractical. Therefore, the next best thing is to have joint ownership, meaning no 1 person pays for anything, it is all paid for by a joint network account (i.e. a network owned PayPal account).

10.) Don't EVER DoS another network
- Many networks think the best way to get users is to kill the competition. But remember, loose lips sink ships. Someone will leak out that the DoS is going on, then the next thing you know, that network is DoSing you back. It's never worth it, at best, your network goes down as well, at worst, you end up in jail.

11.) Don't allow warez
- You may like warez, but that's not the issue. Warez generally doesn't attract users, it attracts bots. You might have 10 warez channels that give you 1000 users, but 975 of those are either the XDCC bots, or things like Bottler/XDCC Catcher. As a result, this adds lag for everyone else and makes the network less attractive to the real users.

12.) Be unique
- If all IRC networks are the same, there is no reason to choose one over another. Don't simply settle for the latest and greatest IRCd and services, customize! With the advent of module based IRC programs, such customizations are easier than ever.

13.) Don't convince large channels to "move" to your network
- This just leads to power-trips. When a channel with several hundred users moves to a 100 user network, the owner of that channel generally feels the network owes him something. Generally, the owner will leave if he has not become an ircop within a few months, since he tends to feel without him, the network is nothing and so the administration will cave in to his demands.

14.) Never give oper access to channel owners
- This is something that would be obvious in politics; it is a conflict of interest. Do you think the owner of #chat, who is an oper, would be more likely or less likely than someone else to kill an op of #chat who is spamming for the channel? The oper has a conflict of interest, he knows the network policy is no spam, but he also wants his channel to grow, what is best for one might not be the best for the other.

15.) Users are a networks' most important asset
- The users are the most important part of the network, always remember that. Take the opinions of users into account when making decisions. Even allow the users to be part of the decision making process, have public meetings, public records on votes (accountability is always a good thing), give a reason to users; simply saying "because that is what the network decided" never helps a user to understand, explain the logic of why it was done. Finally, always remember that users should never be abused, they should be respected. When you abuse users, all you do is make them want to leave and tell their friends to leave. Plus, it gives you, and your network, a bad name. Treating your users like they are the most important part of the network will ensure that they return.

Those are just some of the things I've learned in my time as an IRC admin. Maybe you disagree with every one of them, maybe you agree with all of them, but at least take the time to read them. Maybe it will help save your network. Dispite what many people say, IRC, like all aspects of human life, is very political. Anyone familiar with the political scene knows that it can lead to intense argument and even violence. Therefore, having rules that can limit the disputes as much as possible are always a plus on IRC.

a-1 · none Joined: 13 Aug 2004 Posts: 6

I agree with SupR-Elite-IRC Network Founder.
If nothing gets done about warez in Irc, Irc's future looks like it maybe doomed. Warez frightens people away, not to mention leads Gov. officials in. Warez attracks pc Rooters/Scanners ( hacking into Edu Computers) and the worst illegal hackers on the internet, this I know, our own network has suffered the consequences already. Alot of these people involved in warez simply take the fun out of Irc thus leaving many other networks to suffer their doings. As for script kiddies, well, what can we say they can sure be little nasty buggers who got too much time on their hands rather then get a good education and be a real person in life in adulthood.

katsklaw · Guru Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 1122

very well put codemastr.

w00t · Posted: Aug 23, 2004 5:33pm Post subject:

Wow, that was a long post...

a-1 · none Joined: 13 Aug 2004 Posts: 6

I actually agree with SupR. Its warez that will doom Irc. Officials are bound to kill warez in Irc and lead death to it as well.

When one really looks hard at what troubles warez brings...ex: the worst hackers on internet that root/scan edu computers to use for filesharing, malicious bots of the sort, and not to mention them spider scripts out there ( bottler, orks, xdcc-catchers...which ironically people think they are real people on their network) they will see that its a matter of time before officials crack down on Irc. There is nothing wrong like SupR says about having one or two fileshare channels, personal fileshare unlike warez bots that is, and without the use of spider scripts, but today I see more and more chat networks not involving warez die, and for those networks that simply operate only on account of warez are growing, with the aid of them dang spider scripts., which I know I hate with a passion! Also them so called Irc search engines ( AKA Warez search engines) such as packetnews, ircspy, they are the leading cause of warez taking over.

Our team on our network have long decided to help fight warez from conquering and bringing down Irc. We strive in all ways to try to convince more and more network admins to rid of warez on their network, but like I stated before with the use of spider scripts, its ironic how many admins out there really think they are REAL users, inturn being bots more or less. Why do you think when you go into a warez network/chan there are like 300+ ( or more) nicks in nick list, you can idle there for a month, and never see one nick say a word? Irc , thanks to warez is becoming a leech freaks heaven, not to mention scaring others away.

Irc network owners need to help keep IrcChat alive, by fighting warez, keeping it off your network, only then will Irc have a chance of survival, let them warez networks who solemly run for warez gather them warez channels up.
A-1 network founder

Triple_H · Newbie Joined: 30 Oct 2003 Posts: 94 Location: IRC

A vast amount of Networks have warez now a days. It will be impossible to stop it. Administrators bring warez to their network for two reasons i believe. 1. They think it add's "Flavor" to the network. I mean you get movies porn etc everything you want. And 2. It makes their network look huge.

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353

a-1 · none Joined: 13 Aug 2004 Posts: 6

Personally as an Irc Admin myself, I guess we all have a choice of two choices here given:
1. We allow warez on networks, make it look big ( full of bots that is) up our risks of ddos attacks, upping our risk in officials busting the network, taking a higher chance at allowing viruses to be spread, dealing with spider mIrc scripts ( that can be virtually impossible to rid of) and most important of all allowing Irc to die.

or

2. We start to disallow warez on our networks, although small, they will grow with live action, real chatters, and enjoying fun times on Irc and making Irc what its supposed to be. I know its not fun sitting and paying for a shell to support warez and just watch nicks join/part every 15 secs isn't much of an amusement.

Irc IS not a peer to peer software, so why allow it? For the sake of leechers who want nothing more but to leech what ever they can free? These leechers couldn't even be bothered to use the normal mIrc scripts out there in order to give IrcChat a chance to see what its really about. As for the one or two chans I agree to allowing, thats simply cause people enjoy sharing on line, whether it be personal pics of them, poetry, comics etc... nothing wrong with that as I see it, but to allow a network to simply run and be dependent on strictly warez, thats not good for all of us network admins : ( - It down grades Irc to the point where only leechers will find their way into Irc, not live and real chatters. Whats Irc if all that becomes of it is a p2p software? I know I love/enjoy Irc as it was once was before. Its great to have contact with people all over the globe : )

Stefano · Eleet Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 528 Location: Beirut

codemastr nice rules man, u just reminded me about a mistake i was about to do.

ShelLuser · none Joined: 08 Apr 2005 Posts: 21

A nice post and it basicly sums up almost everything we picked up on our network. There is however one issue I don't fully agree with:

GouroB · none Joined: 12 Jun 2005 Posts: 5

i agree with Codemastr with its nothing to be proud if i own a huge network with tons ( 50/60 k ) of users but coz it doesnt gives me anything than pains and problems but yes its also true that if u see your having more users every day it will definitely make u happy and satisfied, talking bout a oper server where everyone is welcomed ... unlike one aquanight mentioned, so it gives pleasure and satisfaction when u see yes people likes your hard work, and they r joining more than ever. i dont own any huge network as i run a community based network , mostly Bagladeshi people all over the world chats in my network and i get 100 to 250 users but yes i want more, inspite of knowing more users brings more problems , wanna know why ? coz its like a mania .. so we who are related to this irc sh!t we face this problem every day, we hate this problem but do we ban all users to reduce problems ? no we dont coz its our pride and pain, both together.