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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2031
Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Nov 27, 2006 9:08pm Post subject: |
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| mregit wrote: | | I also think there's an element of strategy here... use up everyone else's oil before tapping into your own supply. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but thats something the US shouldn't advertise unless they want their publicity on the global stage labelled with "Selfish"... |
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Stefano
Eleet
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 527
Location: Beirut
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| Posted: Nov 27, 2006 9:48pm Post subject: |
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mregit, listening to you, people will belive that US invaded iraq just because they cared for the poor iraqian people and to instaure democracy
right? |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2031
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Nov 27, 2006 11:26pm Post subject: |
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| Stefano has a good point here, mary... no denying that :/ |
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Mary
SearchIRC Admin
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Nov 28, 2006 11:02am Post subject: |
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| Stefano wrote: | mregit, listening to you, people will belive that US invaded iraq just because they cared for the poor iraqian people and to instaure democracy
right? |
No. The US invaded Iraq as the largest part of a multinational force sent by the UN to liberate Kuwait. THAT WAR was never resolved. It never ended.
In 2002 and 2003, all politicians in the US agreed that Iraq once again posed a danger. Here's a page of quotes - http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html
I'll take one from Senator Hillary Clinton - a strong opponent of the Bush Administration - explaining WHY the US invaded Iraq.
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members...
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Those intelligence reports came from Iraqis. They came to the US seeking political asylum, then told stories about underground nuclear, chemical, and biological labs, mobile missile bases, associations with al Qaeda, etc. There was just enough physical evidence - like Saddam encouraging suicide bombers by giving money to their families, gassing the Kurds, Salman Pak, and jet fighters buried in the dessert sand, and attempts to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger - to put credence to their claims that Saddam was a danger to his people, to the area, and to the US.
In the shadow of 9/11, this administration wasn't going to wait for something to happen when that something could be a nuclear bomb, and they weren't going to give the UN an endless amount of time to act, after their swift response to problems in Rwanda and the Sudan.
The US misinterpreted the culture in the Middle East. We applied our own values and assumed people would welcome freedom, democracy, and the opportunity to direct their own future. Once Saddam was gone, we thought, the residents would roll up their sleeves and work for their country. They would talk to settle their differences. Cooperate. Instead, they picked up their guns and are now fighting for control.
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/ Most wars are not fought as precisely or as politely as we have seen in the last few decades. Civil wars are especially brutal. One side must annihilate the other, crush them until there is no will to fight back. THEN there is peace. THEN the winners rebuild. The problem is, Iran and al Qaeda. Instead of letting the people work out their differences, they are arming one side and sending their troops to help. If the US steps out, there is no question which side will win. If we stay in, the battle for Iraq could well escalate to a major world war centered in the Middle East. |
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magpie
Idler
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Essex, UK
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| Posted: Nov 28, 2006 2:42pm Post subject: |
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Your restaurant analogy is overly simplistic. It's more a case that you're unable to cook enough food for your family, but thankfully there's a restaurant down the road. If that restaurant closed overnight, you'd starve.
EDIT: It's not that I'm specifically criticising the US for that. In this day and age it's near impossible to be energy independent. However, it does mean that you do have to be somewhat involved in Middle Eastern politics - at least for the time being. |
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Mary
SearchIRC Admin
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Nov 28, 2006 3:15pm Post subject: |
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| magpie wrote: | If that restaurant closed overnight, you'd starve.
EDIT: It's not that I'm specifically criticising the US for that. In this day and age it's near impossible to be energy independent. However, it does mean that you do have to be somewhat involved in Middle Eastern politics - at least for the time being. |
I agree with you.
The USA has millions of acres of rich farmland, vast reserves of oil and natural gas, and we were at the center of the industrial revolution 100 years ago. Yet now, we import a lot of agricultural products, most of our energy, and most manufactured goods from clothes to computers.
Its not that we can't. We won't. Our laws and tax structure discourage "dirty" businesses. So they shut down and moved out of the country. But that really isn't to our benefit, because, as your rightly point out, if the restaurant closes overnight, we'll starve.
I need to EDIT too... its not just the Middle East. The feeling is the world is so small and we are so interdependent, that what happens "over there" has repercussions everywhere. 9/11 brought that home with a bang. |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2031
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Nov 28, 2006 4:02pm Post subject: |
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| and the london bombings... |
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magpie
Idler
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Essex, UK
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| Posted: Nov 28, 2006 4:25pm Post subject: |
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On the restaurant front, I think Britain is in a far more dangerous position than the US is. We're increasingly at Russia's whim with regards to gas supply (and we all know how stable and sensible Russia has been of late), and we have absolutely pathetic levels of gas storage.
I do think it's important to discourage "dirty" businesses, but through the promotion of new markets and economies - e.g. carbon trading. There's a real danger that current day environmentalism only serves to damage the environment further as they seem vehemently opposed to real-world solutions to energy supply (read nuclear solutions to power generation). |
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Mary
SearchIRC Admin
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Nov 28, 2006 5:04pm Post subject: |
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| magpie wrote: | | On the restaurant front, I think Britain is in a far more dangerous position than the US is. |
If you have relatives who lived through WWII, ask them about rationing in Britain. If you don't have relatives, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom_during_and_after_World_War_II
Nothing has improved. In fact, people are less prepared now than they were back then - when every mother cooked and canned and preserved a large portion of the harvest from one year to another.
| Quote: | | read nuclear solutions to power generation |
Whats wrong with solar and wind?
Here's a story for you. It happened many years ago. I didn't know much about nuclear technology, despite the fact my best friend was married to a nuclear engineer who designed nuclear power plants. Three Mile Island was all over the news, but I wasn't worried. George (not his real name) was a genius... he wouldn't ever design anything dangerous. This was media hype over nothing, I was sure. So I called Susie (not her real name) to find out if she and George wanted to come over for dinner that weekend. She answered the phone in a whisper. "Mary, we're on our way to the airport. George wants us to go down to my mother's in Florida. He's afraid of what's going to happen at Three Mile." WHAT? "Mary, for god's sake, GET OUT. You live only 75 miles east. You could get a really bad dose of radiation if anything happens."
ACK! So THAT'S why Civil Defense left a brochure on my door titled, "What to do in a nuclear attack".
There were millions of people between my house and Three Mile Island. They would ALL get a "really bad dose of radiation". We told everyone we knew, and we all headed south for a week, until the situation was under control.
When Chernobyl exploded, I understood better what OUR fate could have been. I would have been safe, but I would never have been able to go back to my home or retrieve any of the belongings that I left there - and I would have been one of the lucky ones.
So I am not a fan of nuclear energy. |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2031
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Nov 29, 2006 12:01am Post subject: |
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| mregit wrote: | | Whats wrong with solar |
No sun, no electricityNo wind, well, you know... | Quote: | Here's a story for you. It happened many years ago. I didn't know much about nuclear technology, despite the fact my best friend was married to a nuclear engineer who designed nuclear power plants. Three Mile Island was all over the news, but I wasn't worried. George (not his real name) was a genius... he wouldn't ever design anything dangerous. This was media hype over nothing, I was sure. So I called Susie (not her real name) to find out if she and George wanted to come over for dinner that weekend. She answered the phone in a whisper. "Mary, we're on our way to the airport. George wants us to go down to my mother's in Florida. He's afraid of what's going to happen at Three Mile." WHAT? "Mary, for god's sake, GET OUT. You live only 75 miles east. You could get a really bad dose of radiation if anything happens."
ACK! So THAT'S why Civil Defense left a brochure on my door titled, "What to do in a nuclear attack".
There were millions of people between my house and Three Mile Island. They would ALL get a "really bad dose of radiation". We told everyone we knew, and we all headed south for a week, until the situation was under control.
When Chernobyl exploded, I understood better what OUR fate could have been. I would have been safe, but I would never have been able to go back to my home or retrieve any of the belongings that I left there - and I would have been one of the lucky ones.
So I am not a fan of nuclear energy. |
I'm no fan of anything that could affect the lives of millions if not billions of people, but we are quickly running out of options, no? |
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magpie
Idler
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Essex, UK
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2031
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Nov 29, 2006 4:27pm Post subject: |
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| You're right, magpie, Chernobyl wasn't bad design but rather human error... a lot of disasters have come about due to human error. My question is, would you be willing to risk it? |
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magpie
Idler
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Essex, UK
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| Posted: Nov 30, 2006 2:42pm Post subject: |
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Yes.
I risk my life far more each day by driving to the station and taking the train to work. Then I travel on the tube and work in a place which some people say is "asking for another 9/11".
I don't mind doing any of those things, why should I mind nuclear power?
Incidentally, I live 45 miles from Sizewell and about 15-25 miles from Bradwell (although Bradwell is now being decommissioned). |
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ORenyRen
none
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Dec 11, 2006 10:09pm Post subject: |
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and yet another thread finally goes astray...
although I must admit, this one has stayed on topic (or at least close to it) for a lot longer than many other threads. |
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