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Mary
SearchIRC Admin
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Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Nov 20, 2003 11:12pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://infomesh.net/2003/tuulos.txt
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Asmo
none
none


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Nov 20, 2003 11:25pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Tuulos said in his post:
Quote:
Not doing some web pages. We happily leave that business for those who know it better than us. You may want to read our FAQ again having this in mind.


Ok.. reread the log...

Code:
19:45:47 <tuulos> well, making a global public search engine is not trivial. At first the code will be available. We aim at publising something in early 2004.
19:46:16 <tuulos> but eventually of course we're interested in providing a reference service by ourselves
19:46:16 <tuulos> depending on the support we get etc.
19:47:23 <tuulos> definitely we wan't to make this a community-based project. Not just something academical which nobody uses.


Ok, so on this forum you say you wont, on the log you say your defenitally interested in making a service usuable on the web.

Quote:
We ARE doing a search engine which CAN show example lines from the channel - we provide the CODE which can do that. But we have no intention to publish the logs we're collecting. We only need them to DEVELOP the engine. Publising them would definitely infringe people's privacy. I know, I should have made this far more clear from the beginning.


Then maybe you can explain to us what this reference based service is what you definitally want to make for the community?
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Ville H. Tuulos
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PostPosted: Nov 21, 2003 4:43am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you can find infinite amounts of interpretations which support your favorite conspirancy theory. I guess I've made my point clear. I hope we can continue the discussion on the matter itself.

Quote:
Then maybe you can explain to us what this reference based service is what you definitally
want to make for the community?


Sure, but I hope that you could read these things without trying to find some ulterior motives all the time.

Quote:
19:46:16 <tuulos> but eventually of course we're interested in providing a reference service by ourselves
19:46:16 <tuulos> depending on the support we get etc.


Usually when you're introducing new technology you want to make a first example to show how the it's suggested to be used. That example is commonly called "a reference implementation", see e.g. Apache Tomcat servlet engine, which is the reference implementation for the servlet technology.

Now, we will provide the code (i.e. implementation) anyway, so to show the usability of our system we have to provide a demonstration system. Practically a public web page where you can do searches etc. probably in a static data set. This is what I meant by "a reference service" . Exactly the same thing as I said in my previous post here:

Quote:
However, as any other open source / research project we might want to show and demonstrate our results in public. But that's not our main intent.


And as I've mentioned a million times before, we can't do a public demo without proper permissions. That's why I said "depending on the support we get etc.".
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Asmo
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Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Nov 21, 2003 5:07am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ville H. Tuulos wrote:
I'm sure you can find infinite amounts of interpretations which support your favorite conspirancy theory.


I'm very sorry too see you go this way and dismiss our concerns as if we are trying to create a conspiracy theory.

If it was not you who showed great ignorance towards the IRC community (section 4 point 1 of your FAQ), the withholding of information to make it look like pure academic research, contradiction yourself several times, I could have trust in your word.

Speaking of:, your making it a opt-out system by having channel operators ban the bot. Like some channels dont already have enough problems with limited maxban's settings to keep lamers and floodbots out. Why make *your* problem of getting data *their* problem by making it opt-out? Will you also inform each channel managment about what your bot is so they can choose to opt-out?
This is just one of the many things that will naturally tick of a community like IRC which have been here since the dawn of Internet. If you want to harvest (you use the term yourself by explaining how you get data from amazon.com) data from people and dont want to be bothered with them reacting to it, see if you can get such data from ICQ/MSN or the like, they dont seem to care bout privacy or commercial projects in any way.

As you might understand considering all of the previous contacts (and your refusal to suddenly answer questions when things apparently got too hot) I quite have lost my personal trust in any of your words from now on.

Quote:
Usually when you're introducing new technology you want to make a first example to show how the it's suggested to be used. That example is commonly called "a reference implementation", see e.g. Apache Tomcat servlet engine, which is the reference implementation for the servlet technology.


Then why not just have pointed that out from the beginning? Very nice that you now tell the world your not interested in using these logs publically, while the log of the chat clearly shows you were at least on one point (I guess we could discus this eternally).

I dont mind what other people think of your project, I'll let them decide for themself wether this is a conspiracy theory or not. I just presented them with quotes and copy/pastes from your own website and emails. And then I have to add that I left out a few more too, as I thought the article would have became too long on IRCJunkie.

Quote:
I hope that we could continue this discussion on #searchengine@freenode.net,


I prefer to keep things on a forum so I can think about what I post twice, so I wont have to retract or change what I said in the future.
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[al5001]
Guest





PostPosted: Nov 27, 2003 9:47pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen many users on IRC from universities. For one thing, ALL university hostnames end in either .edu or .edu.country.

Like example:

-NickServ- *** Vegeta is Shadow's Hell FIre Script
-
-NickServ- Last seen address: Vegeta@***.uark.edu

Your hostname is irchive.it.hiit.fi. Wheres the .edu? shouldn't it say *.edu.fi at least? ALL universities have "edu" in their hostnames. Not one doesn't have it.

A masters degree from anything related to IRC is totally wrong. I should consult some professors about this and give them a good laugh.

I have also chatted with many other university students.
NONE of them have ANY spelling or grammatical errors like you do:

19:08:06 <tuulos> we have just ordered a SAN system having 1.5 teras of disc space, to start with

No university student would use "disc" when talking about hard drives. It is spelled disk not disc.

"teras"??? No university student would write that either, it would be typed out exactly "Terabytes" or abbreviated "TB".

I am in the last year of high school and I can pick out a huge grammatical error AND a spelling mistake right here:

19:59:30 <tuulos> I nor anyone else should be priviledged in this sense. It's not privacy.

You sound like my uncle dale in southern ontario. He went bankrupt 3 times because he was totally uneducated and thought he could risk a small business by turning down small offers. He wanted to work for big companies not small ones. LOL serves him right, but anyways... on with my point...

For ONE thing there is no such thing as "priviledged", as dictionary.com explains:

No entry found for priviledged.
Did you mean privileged?

Suggestions:
privileged
privileges
privilege

That is not your only spelling/grammatical error. The whole log is filled with errors.

Stop falsely identifying yourself as a university student in these message boards. We do not have time for lamers.
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[al5001]
Guest





PostPosted: Nov 27, 2003 9:51pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone that gets drones from this hostname I recommend you ban it right away. Either this guy is trying to find a way to spam you, checking your stuff for ways to exploit you, or looking for a way to attack you. Don't trust people that lie.

In this case, he's not from university if his hostname isnt .edu.

Also, it is impossible to get a masters degree from writing a theses based on IRC. That is a huge joke to me.

It's hard to even get any degrees in computers unless you do something like computer science.
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Guest






PostPosted: Nov 27, 2003 9:59pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just keep in mind the guy isn't in the United States.

I doubt the .edu argument helps add anything to the discussion.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:8CnM7_DoFygJ:www.hiit.fi/u/+Ville+Tuulos&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:qvV542H-IPAJ:www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/tuulos/+Ville+Tuulos&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8
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[al5001]
Guest





PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 12:04am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still don't believe he is in university. You don't get university degrees by studying IRC.

Anyhow, all universities have *edu* in their internet addresses.

I didnt say it had to be *.edu.

It can be *.edu.ca.

It can be *.edu.fi.

No matter what, universities have edu in them, unless of course they are 3rd party ones that are on the bottom of the list.
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ed
SearchIRC Staff
SearchIRC Staff


Joined: 25 May 2003
Posts: 366
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 9:43am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[al5001] wrote:
I still don't believe he is in university. You don't get university degrees by studying IRC.

Anyhow, all universities have *edu* in their internet addresses.

I didnt say it had to be *.edu.

It can be *.edu.ca.

It can be *.edu.fi.

No matter what, universities have edu in them, unless of course they are 3rd party ones that are on the bottom of the list.


Good job on doing your research... Visit http://www.edu.fi/english/schools/ and you will see that not one of the universities listed uses name.edu.fi. Also, according to the domain registry in Finland, "Private persons may currently not apply for domain names". So the blanket statement of "ALL universities of *edu*..." might be correct for the US, but it doesn't look that way at all for Finland.
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Maxx
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PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 11:42am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've sent a personal email to both Mr. Tuulos and Mr. Myllyaki requesting the specific IP address(es) of the bot(s) they propose to use for this "research."
My intention is to ban them from my network.
Since I personally fund my server out of my own pocket, and support it with my free time, I have no intention of giving anything away for free.
Above and beyond that, my perspective is that this is an intrusion into the privacy of my users (albeit a very small group) that I have had the pleasure of mingling with for over three years.
I'm certain they would agree.


Maxx
Net Admin
Twyster Net
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Guest






PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 10:11pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed wrote:
[al5001] wrote:
I still don't believe he is in university. You don't get university degrees by studying IRC.

Anyhow, all universities have *edu* in their internet addresses.

I didnt say it had to be *.edu.

It can be *.edu.ca.

It can be *.edu.fi.

No matter what, universities have edu in them, unless of course they are 3rd party ones that are on the bottom of the list.


Good job on doing your research... Visit http://www.edu.fi/english/schools/ and you will see that not one of the universities listed uses name.edu.fi. Also, according to the domain registry in Finland, "Private persons may currently not apply for domain names". So the blanket statement of "ALL universities of *edu*..." might be correct for the US, but it doesn't look that way at all for Finland.


Ed, you are saying the same thing as me, lol.

I was saying some end in .edu and some end in .edu.country

For example: .edu.fi or .edu.ca.

I have seen .edu.ca before.

Smile

This guy isn't from university. Trust me. I am a high-schooler and can spell better than him. NO university student would even make a spelling error such as "priviledge" where it should be "privilege". It takes years to pass university my friend. Unfortunately this guy just loves to boast about things he doesn't have, also known as lying.

Sorry if I offended this guy but seriously I cannot stand people who lie. Especially when they lie about their education. This guy is impersonating himself as being a university student and I feel he is putting a bad look on universities by saying he will get his masters by some crap he did on IRC.

It's nonsense. Anyone can collect data from IRC. It's nothing special and doesn't require a degree of any kind.
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[al5001]
Guest





PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 10:12pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops I forgot to put my name in there, that last post is from me.
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[al5001]
Guest





PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 10:36pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hes from an institution, not necessarily a university. I went to his site.
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Maxx
Guest





PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 10:37pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the email response I received from Mr. Tuula:

The IP adress of irchive.it.hiit.fi is currently 212.68.5.63. However
we have collected enough data to begin testing our statistical models,
so it's quite unlikely that large-scale logging will happen in the
near future.

Best regards,

Ville H. Tuulos | http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/tuulos/
Complex Systems Computation Group (CoSCo) | http://cosco.hiit.fi


Maxx
Net Admin
Twyster Net
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ed
SearchIRC Staff
SearchIRC Staff


Joined: 25 May 2003
Posts: 366
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

PostPosted: Nov 28, 2003 10:42pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[al5001] wrote:

Ed, you are saying the same thing as me, lol.

I was saying some end in .edu and some end in .edu.country

For example: .edu.fi or .edu.ca.

I have seen .edu.ca before.

Smile

No. I am saying .fi does not use edu.fi. It is the opposite of what you are saying.
[al5001] wrote:

This guy isn't from university. Trust me. I am a high-schooler and can spell better than him. NO university student would even make a spelling error such as "priviledge" where it should be "privilege". It takes years to pass university my friend. Unfortunately this guy just loves to boast about things he doesn't have, also known as lying.

He is from Finland (or at least attends college, I assume, there). English is probably not his first language. Even we British/Americans make spelling errors in our own language. How well can you spell in your second language, when writing in the lengths he is?

[al5001] wrote:
It's nothing special and doesn't require a degree of any kind.

No comment. Wink
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