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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1993
Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Aug 02, 2005 4:51am Post subject: A trend of observation |
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In my short couple of years on IRC, I have noticed a trend amongst most new networks...
Joe IRC User is just someone totally new to IRC... no experience with IRCds, IRC Clients, etc. SO they plod along, learning as they go. They discover what the @ means (and the & and ~ symbols on Unreal3.2b or later networks [that have the extra prefixes enabled]) so they may go op begging (which usually gets denied), so they create a channel, add AOPs/SOPs for their mates and have a social layabout channel.
After a while, Joe User gets bored and starts playing with the Channel Operator commands... finds out what they do (usually testing them on their mates, themselves or people they dont know letalone trust "for fun"). Then they discover the meaning of "IRC Operator" and wanna see what the buzz is about all that.
So, off they go, harrassing server admins for O:Lines (I have been bugged many a time myself) and again, get denied.
Feeling disheartened, they go back to Channel Operatorship and thru the winds they hear about UnrealIRCd or bahamut or so... go and grab a copy, install it (more often than not with sloppy configs), invite their mates over and give them all O:lines (not too bad in itself since by then Joe User would know and trust said mates pretty well). Then they see the big nets have something called "xDCC" and spot how many "users" there are in the file sharing rooms and go "hey now! I could do with that" so they bring in xDCC server bots, advertise their server and on flow the bottlers, catchers etc.
Sure enough, this gets boring too so they might go link (or attempt to) their IRCd to other networks/servers (usually to their mates servers -- who would have an IRCd of their own by now if not earlier) and introduce Anope or IRC Services to the network (if not pre-introduced).
After a fairly short length of time, the network is disbanded and Joe User moves ot other nets, finds his mates there and gets an O:Line on their nets. He then finds commands like /kill, /kline, /gline etc and starts getting used to them in much the same way as he did with Channel Operator commands.
Generally, a power trip from start to finish, with no knowledge other than playtime. Granted, there is no formal training environment for people to earn their O:Lines and some of todays mature admins did at one point go on power trips (as it'd appear to others, but to them its just exploring their limits) to find out what they could do (I myself admit this, I have gone on a power trip in the past when I first met the awe-inspiring O:Line, but now have settled to a more modest status). What can we as admins do to curb this rather sad trend?
I know of networks that have a trainee or probationary-oper period to which new opers must earn their lines or at least prove themselves worthy enough to hang onto them, but most new users do not receive such support or mentoring.
Any thoughts people? |
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lagmaster
Lurker
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Aug 02, 2005 8:19am Post subject: |
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i've seen some power trippers on some networks. the only way i learnt is just by installing unreal and basically playing with it with my clones.
i usually give people on my network who i trust a chance to learn how to become an oper and build up skills. so far i've trained up 2 server admins, 6 global opers. right now on the network im regarded quite highly since i have a level mind when things go belly up. granted i might not know it all but i know enough to make a network quite decent.
it all comes down to who's network admin on networks and how they chose opers to see who they really are. there's some networks posted recently i wont touch them with a barge pole since i know there's some immature people there who have oper access.
probably why there's too many networks about, too many power trippers  |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1993
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Aug 02, 2005 8:28am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I run a private IRCd (accessible only from my local LAN) where I can play around, rrefresh my knowledge on commands long forgotten and also test out other IRCds, Services packages, etc (and of course have a kid's-life there too  )
At least I get it off my chest before I step out into the "real world" of IRC. |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1048
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| Posted: Aug 02, 2005 11:36am Post subject: Re: A trend of observation |
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| PingBad wrote: |
Generally, a power trip from start to finish, with no knowledge other than playtime. Granted, there is no formal training environment for people to earn their O:Lines and some of todays mature admins did at one point go on power trips (as it'd appear to others, but to them its just exploring their limits) to find out what they could do (I myself admit this, I have gone on a power trip in the past when I first met the awe-inspiring O:Line, but now have settled to a more modest status). What can we as admins do to curb this rather sad trend? |
Since the only requirements for having an IRC server are 2 brain cells and a PC, there isn't anything "we" as experienced admin can do about it. Except perhaps use our genuine knowledge and experience of how things are supposed to be and hope to strengthen our own nets by using the "anti-power trip" as a selling point.
| Quote: |
I know of networks that have a trainee or probationary-oper period to which new opers must earn their lines or at least prove themselves worthy enough to hang onto them, but most new users do not receive such support or mentoring.
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HellsWinter is initiating just such a training program. I've put in place a very capable person in charge of such a task and I feel comfortable that he will have user/oper and even admin training sessions available to our users rather shortly. In hopes that we always will be a premium IRC network, run by truely experienced opers. Opers that are former opers/admin on larger networks that also have training and not those that install on their LAN and cycle through the help files to learn all the commands. Knowing the commands is just the beginning because it takes more than just knowing a few commands to be an experienced oper.
I too have noticed such a trend that doesn't differnt too much from your observations |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1993
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Aug 02, 2005 3:11pm Post subject: Re: A trend of observation |
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| katsklaw wrote: | | Opers that are former opers/admin on larger networks that also have training and not those that install on their LAN and cycle through the help files to learn all the commands. Knowing the commands is just the beginning because it takes more than just knowing a few commands to be an experienced oper. |
Well, I just use my private IRCd to be familiar with the commands and to know what each does (which in turn, with a bit of maturity, leads to know WHEN to use any of them). I do oper on one network, and I did oper on mIRC Addicts as a Services Admin (to which I voluntarily stepped down to Server Admin).
| Quote: | | HellsWinter is initiating just such a training program. I've put in place a very capable person in charge of such a task and I feel comfortable that he will have user/oper and even admin training sessions available to our users rather shortly. In hopes that we always will be a premium IRC network, run by truely experienced opers. |
I'd be very interested in this, and I am willing to help out if necessary. |
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surfa
none
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Aug 02, 2005 5:11pm Post subject: |
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the administration from the network i belong and i created a room to hang out with admins and ircops from other networks to find out solutions, w/e it's a good idea. we usually try to keep these kids admins wannabes out from it because all they want is to get and o:line to show off with their friends. To me irc means much more than to have an o:line.
This will be kinda out of topic but something good to consider.
'my network' has about 80 active chatters. it's little and we are only 4 admins/ircops. no one else gets an o:line and harrassement for one means a ban if i'm in a good mood 2 netadmins and 2 coadmins that's all we got and it works out great for us. people got used not to ask for olines.
my team of 4 administrators is cool, one is australian 2 americans and 1 from the uk with this we cover the 24 hours schedule just fine  Hope this info helps any good admin who is just starting and wants to do have a clean place without bots, without warez, without bullshit. |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1993
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Aug 02, 2005 7:27pm Post subject: |
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In my view, not off-topic at all...
Myself along with Loser04 are creating a training environment for those who want O:Lines (and also giving them the knowledge we know on how to use them in a responsible and mature manner)... hopefully we can open the doors by September, and I would certainly like to invite Admins from other networks to have their say and also offer what they can.
I think it'd be a success, but natural selection will only show wether or not we have a winner |
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radius
Lurker
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Aug 03, 2005 9:05am Post subject: |
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Very well put Pingbad -
I very much agree with your points and it is an unfortunate situation.
Our network runs stable due to mature admins and no xdcc usage - it has grown in the last year or so, at slow pace, but the admins have no problem with what we have built.
Too bad ircd's have fallen into the category of warez servers. I still think if ircd was being charged at a decent rate then the abuse would trickle, a warez ircd is mainly run by a bunch of immature kiddies with too much time on their hands.
If these little ppl would pick up a book and read we wouldn't have so many morons out there.
Just my 2 cents on the subject. |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 1993
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Aug 03, 2005 11:47pm Post subject: |
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| radius wrote: | | I still think if ircd was being charged at a decent rate then the abuse would trickle, a warez ircd is mainly run by a bunch of immature kiddies with too much time on their hands. |
A good sugestion, but with the current networks already in place (and xDCC rooms on a fair few of them), IRCds would just end up being tossed around xDCC distribution points and onto P2P. It could make the matter worse, IMO |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1048
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| Posted: Aug 04, 2005 11:31am Post subject: |
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| radius wrote: |
Too bad ircd's have fallen into the category of warez servers. I still think if ircd was being charged at a decent rate then the abuse would trickle, a warez ircd is mainly run by a bunch of immature kiddies with too much time on their hands.
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Perhaps the term you are meaning is "IRC server Admin" or "IRC network Staff".
Simply because "ircd" is nothing more than software. To the best of my knowledge there are no ircds that have features designed specificlly for the support of warez but the contrary. UnrealIRCd for example has features that can be used to block all file trading. Bahamut also has features that can be used in preventing illegal file trading.
It is a fact that it has been several years since I've used ircu or hybrid/ratbox. But it seems that the larger(50k+ user networks) are the ones that allow illegal trading, therefore there are some smaller nets that use that allowance as an example. I'm not sure if ircu/ratbox/hybrid have the anti-warez tools that Unreal/Bahamut have but the admin aren't using them. Only if all serious networks that are run by clueful admin would see the light and follow DALnet's example and bannish warez.
So in short it's not the ircd. It's the people administrating the software. |
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radius
Lurker
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Aug 20, 2005 9:33am Post subject: |
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| katsklaw wrote: | | radius wrote: |
Too bad ircd's have fallen into the category of warez servers. I still think if ircd was being charged at a decent rate then the abuse would trickle, a warez ircd is mainly run by a bunch of immature kiddies with too much time on their hands.
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Perhaps the term you are meaning is "IRC server Admin" or "IRC network Staff".
Simply because "ircd" is nothing more than software. To the best of my knowledge there are no ircds that have features designed specificlly for the support of warez but the contrary. UnrealIRCd for example has features that can be used to block all file trading. Bahamut also has features that can be used in preventing illegal file trading.
It is a fact that it has been several years since I've used ircu or hybrid/ratbox. But it seems that the larger(50k+ user networks) are the ones that allow illegal trading, therefore there are some smaller nets that use that allowance as an example. I'm not sure if ircu/ratbox/hybrid have the anti-warez tools that Unreal/Bahamut have but the admin aren't using them. Only if all serious networks that are run by clueful admin would see the light and follow DALnet's example and bannish warez.
So in short it's not the ircd. It's the people administrating the software. |
katsklaw: once again you tend to be a total goof ... the matter of my posting was to state that ircd [software] should have a price tag on it - the fact i abbreviated my sentence does not mean it was incorrect.
The fact you ALWAYS have to correct people is quite the nuisance.
katsklaw: all i can say is get a life! and quit pestering people trying to make a point. You are a waste of space and so is your post! |
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v3|0c17y
Eleet
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 650
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| Posted: Aug 20, 2005 1:21pm Post subject: |
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I learnt with bahamut then evolved to unreal on my own private home network many years ago, when I first had an actual network I admit did abuse my powers but as years went on saw it wasnt fun paying a shell to have a userbase of just 5-10 users, back then there wasnt much of a warez trend going on with xDCC and such, but these days all I see mainly in new small networks is script kiddies who do not even know how to remove glines and the servers are full of just bots and no users asking to link to big networks and when they are denied because of their own lameness go on a trip and start to ddos calling it "hacking" it is a very sad trend  |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1048
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| Posted: Sep 05, 2005 8:29am Post subject: |
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| radius wrote: |
katsklaw: once again you tend to be a total goof ... the matter of my posting was to state that ircd [software] should have a price tag on it - the fact i abbreviated my sentence does not mean it was incorrect.
The fact you ALWAYS have to correct people is quite the nuisance.
katsklaw: all i can say is get a life! and quit pestering people trying to make a point. You are a waste of space and so is your post! |
Once again your trolling about, can't you just have a civil conversation for once?! Your entire existance on this forum has been to degrade me and annoy the total terror out of me and I can prove it. You see, unknown to you I have also been posting incognito from another profile and have done so for about the past 6+ months. I used my exact same attitude, ideals and beliefs. I posted to the same types of posts in the exact same manner. In fact the only thing I changed was my username and you didn't reply to a single one of my posts .. not a single one. Combined I have well over 1300 posts, yet everytime I post as katsklaw and only when I post as katsklaw, you have something stupid to say. So please remind me which one of us has been a waste of space/posts and who exactlly the nuisance has been.
Part of the very problem observed in this thread is spawned by the fact that many IRC Admins are clueless and lack experience and here you are intentionally using inacurate terms to boost their ignorance. Please do us all a favor and use correct terms or don't speak at all, your doing nothing but confusing people and suggesting that you really don't know anything about IRC
Your trucation is no more useful than saying "I run a mIRC server and I'm an mIRC cop".
I'm fed up with your condecending rhetoric, so from now on if you haven't anything nice to say to me .. say nothing at all.
As for the ignorant point of charging money for IRCd's then you will still have idiots with money running servers. Having money to pay for a daemon doesn't give you any experience at all. Therefore your suggestion is pointless.
So if it's ok with you your highness, lets get back to the topic. |
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radius
Lurker
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sep 07, 2005 2:16pm Post subject: |
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| katsklaw wrote: | | radius wrote: |
katsklaw: once again you tend to be a total goof ... the matter of my posting was to state that ircd [software] should have a price tag on it - the fact i abbreviated my sentence does not mean it was incorrect.
The fact you ALWAYS have to correct people is quite the nuisance.
katsklaw: all i can say is get a life! and quit pestering people trying to make a point. You are a waste of space and so is your post! |
Once again your trolling about, can't you just have a civil conversation for once?! Your entire existance on this forum has been to degrade me and annoy the total terror out of me and I can prove it. You see, unknown to you I have also been posting incognito from another profile and have done so for about the past 6+ months. I used my exact same attitude, ideals and beliefs. I posted to the same types of posts in the exact same manner. In fact the only thing I changed was my username and you didn't reply to a single one of my posts .. not a single one. Combined I have well over 1300 posts, yet everytime I post as katsklaw and only when I post as katsklaw, you have something stupid to say. So please remind me which one of us has been a waste of space/posts and who exactlly the nuisance has been.
Part of the very problem observed in this thread is spawned by the fact that many IRC Admins are clueless and lack experience and here you are intentionally using inacurate terms to boost their ignorance. Please do us all a favor and use correct terms or don't speak at all, your doing nothing but confusing people and suggesting that you really don't know anything about IRC
Your trucation is no more useful than saying "I run a mIRC server and I'm an mIRC cop".
I'm fed up with your condecending rhetoric, so from now on if you haven't anything nice to say to me .. say nothing at all.
As for the ignorant point of charging money for IRCd's then you will still have idiots with money running servers. Having money to pay for a daemon doesn't give you any experience at all. Therefore your suggestion is pointless.
So if it's ok with you your highness, lets get back to the topic. |
Katsklaw:
Wow not only are you a pain, you are one paranoid little man with an ego problem ... just so you know to ease your little mind, and not that it’s any of your business either ... I was occupied most of the summer and had no time to look at searchirc.org - if you check the dates of my posts you would have noticed that before making idiotic accusations.
Secondly Mr. Katsklaw, the post in that forum was a reply to PINGBAD and in fact not to you, as I have said in the past, searchirc is not all about you. I did not come after you to start a troll when in fact you did.
Please wake up from your little fiction land that you live in, and get your facts straight - every time I post something you make some rude moronic comment and it gets very tiresome.
One day it would be nice if you had something nice to say that you would post it immediately after I did, as opposed to reading about how you tried to make yourself mightier than everyone else on searchirc.
Thank you for your continued replies; I do appreciate how you try to redeem yourself only to make yourself out to be the bigger fool. |
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SATAN-HHH
Eleet
Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 843
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sep 07, 2005 7:34pm Post subject: |
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| v3|0c17y wrote: | | I learnt with bahamut then evolved to unreal on my own private home network many years ago, when I first had an actual network I admit did abuse my powers but as years went on saw it wasnt fun paying a shell to have a userbase of just 5-10 users, back then there wasnt much of a warez trend going on with xDCC and such, but these days all I see mainly in new small networks is script kiddies who do not even know how to remove glines and the servers are full of just bots and no users asking to link to big networks and when they are denied because of their own lameness go on a trip and start to ddos calling it "hacking" it is a very sad trend |
So true. There is a LARGE lack of trained and professional staff on new servers due to the ease of which one can start an irc network. Noone takes the time to do the actual "hard" stuff such as proper training of staff, proper organization of network, and little or no management. Unfortunately, it's a trend that'll probably continue for a long time. |
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