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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1087
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 Posted: Nov 14, 2004 4:00pm Post subject: |
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Oh and by the way, Unreal doesn't give opers any godlike powers. A summation of God's powers would be omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Unreal offers NONE of these capabilities to opers. Unreal doesn't really offer any more power to opers than other IRCds do.
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I agree with the God powers point, rather funny actually  However, I must disagree about the amount of "power" Unreal gives to opers in definition of power meaning access to commands.
I can't think of many IRCd's that allow you to change a users host/username on the fly. Yes, Bahamut and a few others DO change your host, however it's not done at the will of the opers via a command like /chghost. It's done automagicly by the IRCd or Services with no human intervention aside from identify/auth/login and expected in most cases.
I also don't remember most IRCd's that allow you to use standard client commands without sending a form of Global Notice. This is in reference to can_override. Yes you can set your snomasks to see a global message but that's not the same as sending a global message to every oper whether they want to see them or not.
Unreal even goes as far as allowing opers to change their own or other users GECOS without reconnecting. Useful? .. to some. In other IRCd's? none that I can think of.
How about the umode +q/+a as a global setting? .. What other IRCd disallows the kick/banning of Network Staff in *all* channels? umode +q/+a is cool at the channel level. It virtually removes channel takeovers. If in the case of a takeover when the founder isn't present then allow the oper to use +a/+q on themselves for that channel only! Followed by a big fat Global notice that all opers can see.
What about the ability to force a user to join/part any channel an oper wishes? /sajoin is used on other ircd's, granted, but the ones I can think of the only user the /sajoin commands affects is the issuing oper .. not users.
In some cases Unreal can give an Oper more "power" than Services uses. Unreal even allows opers to add lines to the MOTD file.
Is there another IRCd that does all this? .. perhaps. Lets not try to fool anyone by saying Unreal don't dish out more "power" than other IRCd's. Because that statement is truely false. |
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aquanight
Lurker
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 118
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Nov 14, 2004 10:47pm Post subject: |
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That's great, but no one forces you to use those, no one forces you to go on a network that uses those, and no one forces you to add an oper that might use those  .
*edit* And on another note, many of those can be disabled, at the least on the server level:
username/ident/hostname changing: open include/config.h find #undef DISABLE_USERMOD, change #undef to #define. Recompile (don't run ./Config). Disables realname changing too. Might break HostServ.
can_override: Again in include/config.h find #undef NO_OPEROVERRIDE, change #undef to #define. Recompile (don't run ./Config). For network level disabling, VLine the O version flag.
realname: users can do that too (to themselves only), but that too is disabled along with username/ident/hostname, see above.
umode +q: don't give anyone services-admin or can_setq. And since umode +q has it's own permission flag, being made a serviceadmin by services (via SVSO +a and SVSMODE +a) doesn't allow one to set +q .
SAJoin: Don't give services-admin flag. You don't really need SAMode if you're disabling operoverride, do you?
/addmotd: I heard it was going to be removed, but still - I could log in to my shell and accomplish the same task, with ANY IRCd... and I believe this is only available to server admins anyway, so if you want to disable it, just don't use the admin flag.
*edit* Oh and one other thing: I've seen worse. One net I'm on did an interesting custom hackjob of unreal, giving a) the ability of any oper with <can't remember if it's serviceadmin or operoverride, or both> to use SVS* commands (!) and b) the ability of afore mentioned opers to spoof a channel message's source nick (but not user@host, but combined with /sethost and /setident...). Why I'm still on that net is beyond me. |
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phrozen77
Newbie
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 83
Location: There!! A 3-headed monkey, right behind you!
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| Posted: Nov 15, 2004 11:47am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why I'm still on that net is beyond me. |
dont get me wrong, but wouldnt a simple "/quit" and never coming back help?
also, if youre going to argument about friends or the likes.. why not just telling them the reason your not any longer on that network and your now on network XYZ now because of that?
time to sort some friends out i think  |
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counselor
none
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Nov 15, 2004 12:25pm Post subject: I would never use another |
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codemastr,
ignore any who would say that unreal is not good, its all ive ever used, and would never use any other. Keep up the good work. |
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aquanight
Lurker
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 118
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Nov 16, 2004 11:07am Post subject: |
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| phrozen77 wrote: | | dont get me wrong, but wouldnt a simple "/quit" and never coming back help? |
Well, you don't just leave a network just because they have things that can be abused. You leave because they do abuse those things. If we left networks just for having an abusable feature, then we couldn't go anywhere because, guess what, KILL is abusable and exists in every IRCd! |
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phrozen77
Newbie
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 83
Location: There!! A 3-headed monkey, right behind you!
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| Posted: Nov 16, 2004 12:30pm Post subject: |
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| from this point of view ur absolutely right, however i think i just misinterpreted your statement a bit... i thought they did / do abuse it and you seemingly meant it the way that they could, so i excuse me for this. |
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zeke
Idler
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Nov 16, 2004 5:26pm Post subject: Re: I would never use another |
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| counselor wrote: | codemastr,
ignore any who would say that unreal is not good, its all ive ever used, and would never use any other. Keep up the good work. |
the reason I started this thread, was not because I was unhappy with Unreal, it is a great IRCd as far as I'm concerned, this thread was not started to bash Unreal or any other IRCd, but Unreal has been stereotyped as a "n00b13z" IRC server, and aside from that, in order to be able to claim one knows what one is doing in any field, it is wise for him to experience as much as possible within that field. In the end we stuck with Unreal, but I'm sure at some point I'll be building at least a test network based on different server types and so on, just for the experience of working with the different possibilities, and so that when my friends are asking me what daemon to use, I can make a good recommendation based on the features given and required, rather than simply saying "Unreal!" - because lets be honest....as good as Unreal may have been for so many networks I work with...theres the possibility it won't be the best for the next network.
*shrugz* |
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codemastr
Idler
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Nov 20, 2004 1:23pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Unreal even goes as far as allowing opers to change their own or other users GECOS without reconnecting. Useful? .. to some. In other IRCd's? none that I can think of. |
Well I don't see how changing your own gecos is a "power" thing. As you said, you can just reconnect. And by the way, you'll also notice that regular users can change their GECOS. So in the event that an oper did use it for abuse, the user could change it right back.
| Quote: | | In some cases Unreal can give an Oper more "power" than Services uses. Unreal even allows opers to add lines to the MOTD file. |
Well that's just plain wrong. Unreal has a command that allows the ADMIN to add a line to HIS motd. If you're the admin, you likely have shell access anyway (it's your server). It doesn't give you more power, just an easier way to edit your own motd. And in any case, I don't see any relation to services.
| Quote: | | Is there another IRCd that does all this? .. perhaps. Lets not try to fool anyone by saying Unreal don't dish out more "power" than other IRCd's. Because that statement is truely false. |
The problem here is you define power vastly different than most people do. I don't think anyone else would say adding a line to your own motd or changing your own realname is "power." That's an ability. Power is an ability that allows you to exert control over another. Adding a line to the motd doesn't do that. But even so, you missed my entire point. Yeah, Unreal has a command that could change a hostname while others don't. But, that's a minor thing. As an example, all IRCds have a form of /kline that can ban users. Let me make a comparison:
There are two guys, Jim and Bob. Both have the power to kill you.
Jim, however, also has the power to cut your hair real short.
Does Jim have more power than Bob?
You would say yes, I would say no. Perhaps in theory he does have more power (he can cut your hair while Bob can't), but in reality, that power is meaningless. |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1087
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| Posted: Nov 20, 2004 10:55pm Post subject: |
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| aquanight wrote: | | That's great, but no one forces you to use those, no one forces you to go on a network that uses those, and no one forces you to add an oper that might use those . |
That's correct, however nothing is stopping an oper from using them either except removing them and requiring a modified version of Unreal or trusting your Server Admins 100%. Yes, I agree you should always trust oper/admins before giving them access. The problem I have is it's very very hard to earn that level of trust from me. I have friends that I've known for years that I wouldn't let run Unreal on my network simply because that level of trust isn't there. It's not practical for me to require someone to know me for years before they can link.
My main complaints about unreal would most likely not affect the average server/net admin.
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*edit* And on another note, many of those can be disabled, at the least on the server level: |
Yeah, that's great for my server .. but what about other servers on my net? see the trust thing above.
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username/ident/hostname changing: open include/config.h find #undef DISABLE_USERMOD, change #undef to #define. Recompile (don't run ./Config). Disables realname changing too. Might break HostServ.
can_override: Again in include/config.h find #undef NO_OPEROVERRIDE, change #undef to #define. Recompile (don't run ./Config). For network level disabling, VLine the O version flag.
realname: users can do that too (to themselves only), but that too is disabled along with username/ident/hostname, see above.
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Again, great for my server ..
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SAJoin: Don't give services-admin flag. You don't really need SAMode if you're disabling operoverride, do you?
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My point here was I'd rather have /samode than can_override
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/addmotd: I heard it was going to be removed, but still - I could log in to my shell and accomplish the same task, with ANY IRCd... and I believe this is only available to server admins anyway, so if you want to disable it, just don't use the admin flag.
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To be honest I don't know a great deal about this command. However, I would rather be inconvenienced and have to edit the motd the old fashioned way.
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*edit* Oh and one other thing: I've seen worse. One net I'm on did an interesting custom hackjob of unreal, giving a) the ability of any oper with <can't remember if it's serviceadmin or operoverride, or both> to use SVS* commands (!) and b) the ability of afore mentioned opers to spoof a channel message's source nick (but not user@host, but combined with /sethost and /setident...). Why I'm still on that net is beyond me. |
I agree, there are far worse out there. However, I still disagree with the statement that Unreal gives the same access as other IRCd's.
Also, counselor, just in case your wondering. I'm not saying Unreal isn't good. In fact it is a good IRCd, i've used it for quite some time .. there is alot of flexability in the IRCd that you can't find elsewhere.
I guess my underlying point would be that it grants too much power/acess whatever you wish to call it for my liking, which is the reason I stopped using it. If I hated/disliked/thought the IRCd was bad, I wouldn't be helping on their support board!  |
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Ashen
Idler
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 285
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| Posted: Nov 21, 2004 3:29pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I would suggest you try the 'big 3':
* Bahamut
* Hybrid/ratbox/(ptlink?)
* Unreal / Ultimate
And a few less well known ones, like :
* RageIRCD
* ShadowIRCD
etc
-Ashen |
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