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PingBad
Guru
Guru

Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2010
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Jan 06, 2008 11:01pm Post subject:

katsklaw wrote:

Imagine if you will an entire city of cars, all of them are green. After a while it doesn't matter who makes the car, what size tires are on the car, how fast it is .. all that matters is all you see is thousands of green cars. This is where my opinion comes from. Some one needs to bring in a red car, and then I'll be interested in how loud the radio is. Smile

Hope your link works out.

While I didn't think of it that way, yes I agree with the analogy

Lord_Diablo
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Fairfield,CA

Posted: Jan 07, 2008 12:46am Post subject:

mouselike wrote:

To be quite honest id rather chat on a small friendly 100 user network with no services, laid back friendly opers than visit a network thats tried too hard to be unique from others that offer stupid pointless stuff to just try to be different.

The same thing can be said for unrealircd + anope networks... yes they are all the same and granted they bring no new features or stuff than any other of its counterparts, but then you look past the software and interact with the humans for uniqueness no the servers/services.

I (along with 2 other netadmins) run unreal + anpoe, but it isnt that attracts the users but the fact we can all have a laugh, we welcome new users and they return for that reason and is making us grow near the 2k mark, it aint our ircd software or services that makes them come back.

Though I do agree also with what you are saying and yes most users do take the look at the software before the users approach and would rather see something different which is quite sad to see irc go like this, but I do believe that the explosion in the amount of irc networks is partially to blame for this.

In conclusion (imho) if you want unique networks get to know the opers/users and channels first, then decide if the network is unique enough for you to stay and this network is quite simply unique i think.

I don't give arats ass about what software a network uses. I'm going to have to agree with mouselike here. If your one of the IRCd bashing goons, i hope you all die. IRC is meant to be fun to CHAT, not to create virus's, bitch about software, xdcc, etc.. so applause to mouselike!

sirkit
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: eth0

Posted: Jan 07, 2008 6:56am Post subject:

you cant hate me, because i dont bash on ircds i just bash on unreal

mentor
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 66
Location: San Diego, CA

Posted: Jan 08, 2008 4:03am Post subject:

The software is not what truly makes a network unique as some others have pointed out. You'll notice that most top 100 networks vary really little in this respect. In 12+ years of IRC'ng/Opering on networks both large and small I have ran into very few users who pay particular attention to what ircd or services package the network is running. As long as it works and fits their needs they don't really care. It's the overall experience and sense of community which make visitors return.

greg27
Lurker
Lurker

Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Australia

Posted: Jan 08, 2008 5:08pm Post subject:

mentor wrote:

The software is not what truly makes a network unique as some others have pointed out. You'll notice that most top 100 networks vary really little in this respect. In 12+ years of IRC'ng/Opering on networks both large and small I have ran into very few users who pay particular attention to what ircd or services package the network is running. As long as it works and fits their needs they don't really care.

It's the overall experience and sense of community which make visitors return.

true that - the ircd/services being run may be of concern to an oper or channel owner, but to a regular chatter it really doesn't make much difference.

sirkit
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: eth0

Posted: Jan 15, 2008 8:37pm Post subject:

actually it can make a lot of a difference to the user, whether it be that they're hosting their channel on the network and fanboy certain functions/features, and ontop of that stableness of the ircd and services effects the user also.. anyone who's known anything about 1. programming 2. the irc protocol also knows that the way somethings coded, what language its coded in, will also know that the program itself will in more than one way cause a user to react to its functionality, in either a good, or bad way, on multiple occasions, and depending on what they're using the program for. so there you have it. and on that note..i really need some client servers on my network..

freeman22j
none
none

Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1

Posted: Mar 10, 2008 10:46am Post subject: how can i get a real hacker

[You came to the wrong board, bud -PingBad]

katsklaw
Guru
Guru

Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1064

Posted: Mar 10, 2008 11:00am Post subject:

Lord_Diablo wrote:

mouselike wrote:

Unfortunately there are a lot of people that DO care about what software is being used, and a lot of them are not bashers at all. They are just tired of seeing the same thing over and over and over again. IF people would just use Unreal/Anope to it's full potential it wouldn't be so bad. Unfortunately most admins stop caring about configuration about 10 seconds after they successfully get services linked.

I'm proud of you that you don't care about software, too bad there are thousands here that do.

twiggz
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 74

Posted: Mar 10, 2008 12:30pm Post subject: have 2 servers that will link

have been trying to be off on my own but dont have the time. 2 ircds running solid-ircd are available will run any ircd you like. irc.meganet.us my nick is mike. look for me in #core

mouselike
Lurker
Lurker

Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 242

Posted: Mar 11, 2008 2:28pm Post subject:

katsklaw wrote:

Lord_Diablo wrote:

mouselike wrote:

IF people would just use Unreal/Anope to it's full potential it wouldn't be so bad. Unfortunately .....

I'm proud of you that you don't care about software, too bad there are thousands here that do.

That is something I do agree with to some point, however id like to meet an admin that does make full use of every feature of an ircd like unreal then I would soon quit straight after as imho most commands are not an ehancement, they are a pest to the users to whom the opers issue the commands upon. SAJOIN and SAPART, forced join on connect, setting glines via /GLINE instead of controlled access via services, opers allowing themselfs to click on their nicks and click de/op,voice is the few things that annoy me, along with lots of features comes the possibilty of exploitation, server crashes and that always arguable quote "it uses more resources" than XXXX ircd does etc, but I do feel an ircd that has less features, less commands a oper can use to abuse its users with is by far the ircd i would go for.

Me as a user I dont care what software a network uses, though as an admin it is of some importance that opers rights are all the same, by this I mean we dont have position of power on the network, all opers get either Global or local operator on the ircd, no netadmin, serveradmin flags etc.

I do believe services however should control a opers privledges on a network if they are to be banning users globally, though obviously still reserve the right to local ban them via set klines in the config for example.

katsklaw
Guru
Guru

Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1064

Posted: Mar 11, 2008 8:26pm Post subject:

mouselike wrote:

That is something I do agree with to some point, however id like to meet an admin that does make full use of every feature of an ircd like unreal[...]

Then you should go ahead and quit because I'm such an admin. However, using all features is not the same as doing advanced configurations of software. Loading uncommon modules is a good start, writing your modules is even better, although not everyone knows how. My point is people that call them selves Net Admins work for hours if not days just getting services linked to an ircd and call it quits as far as configuration goes, and configuration on 2 highly modular applications like Anope/Unreal goes a lot farther than just the basics.

I've tweaked the hell out of Anope and Unreal constantly, wrote modules to stretch the abilities beyond Anope's original design to the point that I'd end up having to rewrite a good portion of code because a module couldn't quite handle what I wanted to do without the code looking like a French Invasion. I've found bugs that have affected 2 year old code in Unreal before because I tweaked it in a way no one else thought of. Every coder on our network tweaks the hell out of Nefarious and X3 and we've found all kinds of bugs which we've patched and submitted.

Unreal has had modular commands for quite some time now, if you don't want /sajoin or /sapart or any other command for that matter on your network, then simply delete the module and you are done. It does require you to to include m_*.so instead of commands.so. You can disable nearly anything with Unreal except host masking, and I guarantee you 90%+ of the Unreal users don't know that trick, yet some bitch about all the God powers Unreal has instead of using that wasted energy to find out that you can strip all those powers away. I can configure Unreal to be more bare bones than Bahamut if I wanted. Oper overrides is a compilable option which can be disabled completely and additionally a deny version block can insure than no server linking is compiled to allow overrides, which will kill the concept of people deopping people with pop-up menus. A quick and easy code change in the conf parser and there is no more server,services or netadmins either, no umode +W or any other oper flag you don't want. Obviously editing the source is a bit more advanced but completely legal according to the GPL license Unreal is released under.

Also with my experience with Anope end-user support, 95% of the users I've helped couldn't even get services linked properly without spending ant least 2 days on it and even then they get so frustrated because they have no clue about IRC to start with. That's part of the reason I don't help as often as I used to. As soon as I see a clueless person trying to set-up an ircd and services I magically go AFK, because I haven't the patience to teach basic linking skills to people that call them selves Net Admins. I'd bet large sums of money that more than 80% of the admins out there today don't know how to configure their networks beyond simple links. So I'd make a rather educated guess that all those so called "we are different" networks that all run Unreal/Anope aren't really any different at all. Not in configuration, not in practice, not in knowledge or skill level either.

Katlyn
none
none

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 33

Posted: Mar 13, 2008 10:12am Post subject:

Quote:

Not every network that has SAJOIN/PART enabled or the ability for opers to override in channels uses it to abuse their users. No doubt there are many networks that do use them to 'abuse' their users or to just have a power trip every so often, but there are networks out there that use them to benefit the users and to ensure their network is better prepared when the need arises for these commands to be used.

I also don't see why you think having separate operator flags is such a bad thing when you go on to saying that the services should control an oper's privileges. What's the difference between the IRCd managing them and the services managing them? I also don't see what the difference is between setting G-lines through the services or through the IRCd directly..

Also you mention that having more features increases the potential for exploitation or server crashes - I'd like to think that a command like SAJOIN (which has been around for a long time on Unreal) wouldn't have any bugs left in it.. And if you do add new modules, or modules that you've written yourself, I'd like to think that you actually take the time to ensure that they can't be exploited, or that they don't cause unexpected server crashes... Having said this though, even the most basic parts of Anope still contain horrible bugs that haven't been sorted out yet.

I don't see any problem with the number of features available to opers so long as those opers use them in a professional way, and only when they are needed. There's no point in restricting what your opers are able to do - if you don't trust them with commands then they really shouldn't have any privileges on your network at all.

katsklaw
Guru
Guru

Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1064

Posted: Mar 13, 2008 2:15pm Post subject:

Katlyn wrote:

I also don't see why you think having separate operator flags is such a bad thing when you go on to saying that the services should control an oper's privileges. What's the difference between the IRCd managing them and the services managing them? I also don't see what the difference is between setting G-lines through the services or through the IRCd directly..

The dfference is that only a few hand full of admins have access to services, especially it's shell account. Services is actually it's own IRCd and has it's own staff. IF global banning and other abilities like granting ops in channels was limited to Services and not the IRCd then the senior admims or Net Admins have a tighter control on security. Otherwise EVERY admin that links to your network can manipulate their own ircd configuration and grant any globally affective abilities they want. By having all these features in the IRCd it calls for a greater level of trust in the linking admin to do what they are told, whereas if all abilities where controlled by services, the most the incoming admin can do is /kill a bunch of people.

For example, many IRCd's have the /SAMODE command. This command allows any oper that has the services admin flag in the ircd to have access to the ability to change channel modes without needing to be a Channel Operator. Now in several IRCd's like Bahamut and Unreal, /SAMODE is controlled by the +a flag and umode +a. Some IRC packages like Anope will not allow an IRCop to gain access to umode +a unless they are also on the Services Admin list in Services. This is to prevent a server admin from assigning oper flags to IRCops without permission from the network staff. If all such access to these abilities where limited to services and not in the IRCd, then server admins will not have the access to grant unauthorized access to other IRCops.

Quote:

I don't see any problem with the number of features available to opers so long as those opers use them in a professional way, and only when they are needed.

The point here is you must first TRUST the admins/IRCops to be professional and use the commands in an acceptable manner. Yes, it's true that you should always trust your opers prior to granting them such status, but what about new server links? Are you going to make those interested in linking hang out for months so you get to trust them before you allow them to link? Of course not. If all these abilities were in services and not the IRCd, the level of trust required to make you feel more comfortable about who has access to what is greatly reduced as is the level of trust the incoming admin will need to have prior to linking.

I'd also like to mention that IRC administration today in 2008 is not the same as it was 12 years ago in 1996. A lot of "old school" admins such as myself learned IRC differently, we handled many of the same problems, but with a lot less tools and toys. So we know that all these God Powers of todays IRC are not needed at all and most of these commands are simply toys to be used by the younger crowd. 12 years ago a K:Line actually meant something and there was only 2 type of opers .. local and global. To be honest, even today in 2008, that's all that is needed for those that have been trained correctly. Yes, there are a few new tricks that the bots of today know and use and a few of the newer commands make it a bit easier to manage a network. HOWEVER, SAJOIN is NOT one of them! ANY user that doesn't know how to join a channel can be taught in less than 2 minutes, opers should stop being lazy a nd teach their users ... users should stop being lazy and LEARN a few command or they should switch to a lesser intelligent chat medium like email or IM's!

I admin on a feature rich, modern network using modern software as well as admin on an older network who still uses 10 year old software and to be honest, I can keep nasties off the network just as effectively with the exception that on the older network, it may require me to be a bit more resourceful and there is nothing wrong with that. Even with our modern set-up, it's possible to get a rogue oper but they really can't do a lot of damage before an admin removes their access and it's even less likely to happen on the older network.

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