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| Do you agree with my points? |
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| Total Votes : 4 |
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Calum
none
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Jun 19, 2007 12:22pm Post subject: Quakenet - has the largest network lost interest? |
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Most of the staff there will probally say I'm an attention 15 year old however they're quite right when I'm posting this - I would like your critism on my thoughts. Yes people can argue against them I accept that.
This started when suddenly the forum disappeared and the link towards it also, this was nearly a month ago and no one actually knows why in #help or possibilly they're covering it up and no announcement on the websie. No simple explanation for its 150,000 keen users - well it's quite possible 15% of that userbase aren't actually human!
I have done several work explacements and I've learnt how important "public relations" is vital otherwise people won't care. You don't inform them and they disappear. Now I tried my best to put my arguements across to Abdul who is apparantly head of public relations and there were things like "for the last few years we like to keep thingss internal" - Aye, that saves time for the large amount of IRC operators who helped out ages ago or a friend of an admin but what do they actually do to help Quakenet? We don't know as the key to public knowledge is; yes you guessed right 'public relations'!
Of course there is a lot of behind the scenes work to keep the network going and I'm very sure myself and the other users of Quakenet appreciate that a lot. Also the #feds team seem to have the same people working whilst some just sit on the oper team and throw glines which may be sometimes racially motivated against german teenagers having a laugh - sometimes not for the benefit of other users and sometims because they want to have a friendly chat and some would call it sucking up. Yep, I do it and that's how I have managed to meet some fantastic journalists and actors in my time.
Now to conclude, has Quakenet given up? Around 20 members of staff in #help and at 'peak' time in the evening you're seeing a maximum of 1-3 staff and there's been 3 news reports in the last year, hardly anything about progress/developments on Quakenet. Engage with the userbase will help keep Quakenet high up in the chart!
I've managed to forget several points I was going to add so will add them in due course |
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mouselike
Lurker
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Jun 20, 2007 3:22am Post subject: Re: Quakenet - has the largest network lost interest? |
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| Calum wrote: | | Most of the staff there will probally say I'm an attention 15 year old however they're quite right when I'm posting this - I would like your critism on my thoughts. Yes people can argue against them I accept that. |
Most users online are or act like 15 year old kids, but the simple fact is most irc operators these days be it large or small networks are actually teenagers.
| Calum wrote: |
This started when suddenly the forum disappeared and the link towards it also, this was nearly a month ago and no one actually knows why in #help or possibilly they're covering it up and no announcement on the websie. No simple explanation for its 150,000 keen users - well it's quite possible 15% of that userbase aren't actually human! |
There maybe reasons preventing them giving an explanation or annoucement, my reasons could be that iirc the forums used the accounts from Q for its forum users, there maybe been a bug, someone exploited and abused it or seen the forum itself wasnt workable or didnt offer the stuff they required for a working forum intergrated with their website and services, who knows thats my view on it.
| Calum wrote: |
I have done several work explacements and I've learnt how important "public relations" is vital otherwise people won't care. You don't inform them and they disappear. Now I tried my best to put my arguements across to Abdul who is apparantly head of public relations and there were things like "for the last few years we like to keep thingss internal" - Aye, that saves time for the large amount of IRC operators who helped out ages ago or a friend of an admin but what do they actually do to help Quakenet? We don't know as the key to public knowledge is; yes you guessed right 'public relations'! |
I think you are getting side tracked as to what QuakeNet really is, it is an IRC network, its intentions is to be the irc network with real time chat, not a public forum community, the forum was an added bonus or like the flake in the ice cream, it isnt needed but it was given to the users as an alternative way of discussing glines, development of services, meetings etc, and even though this cant be achived via the forums as you quite rightly put they have gone, you can still discuss them on their channels.
Some things are best kept quiet for the sake of complications from people who are just set out to cause havoc. Security through obscurity comes to mind with things that could possibly cause potential harm to its userbase, services or servers.
| Calum wrote: |
Of course there is a lot of behind the scenes work to keep the network going and I'm very sure myself and the other users of Quakenet appreciate that a lot. Also the #feds team seem to have the same people working whilst some just sit on the oper team and throw glines which may be sometimes racially motivated against german teenagers having a laugh - sometimes not for the benefit of other users and sometims because they want to have a friendly chat and some would call it sucking up. Yep, I do it and that's how I have managed to meet some fantastic journalists and actors in my time. |
You assume that it's just opers that do the work of glines, sometimes these abusing users you are on about get caught out by quakenets own services, like proxyscans, spamscan or genuinly do deserve it. And if you think the germans are being racially abused by opers, then you should try being an op in a large support channel or even an oper and you will soon become to learn that a gline or ban is neither more than the best option. I aint aiming that at german users, uk users (yes i am in the uk but dont abuse lol) aswell as alot of other european countries who just dont know how to behave on a free public median which isnt a right but a priv to them.
On another note I would imagine running the largest network currently is no easy task, yes opering up and idling there is the easiest thing possible and those opers should either be made to be active whilst on oper status or asked to deoper etc, though as you mentioned there is a lot going on behind the scenes of running a network, you got to stop and consider that the servers sponsored to quakenet are infact those irc servers of large isp/gaming networks with probably paid users, who then naturally get 1st privillage over the irc network users; aswel as maintaing the servers and its network structure requires time, consultation for any changes to be made and done etc. So yes i agree with you but they may have legit reasons for being idle and intorrable to teens who are just set out to annoy rather than be helpful.
| Calum wrote: |
Now to conclude, has Quakenet given up? Around 20 members of staff in #help and at 'peak' time in the evening you're seeing a maximum of 1-3 staff and there's been 3 news reports in the last year, hardly anything about progress/developments on Quakenet. Engage with the userbase will help keep Quakenet high up in the chart! |
If quakenet had given up it wouldnt be where it is at now and growing. Though irc is no competion. If quakenet drops down in the ""chart"" to 2nd i dont think that they would be bothered as they still are a unique network and for a rule of no wares network and holding position #1 i think that quite clearly shows they havent given up but actually done some good work at good efforts at all cost to become such a success.
News reports from the help team isnt required. When #help started it was started by users who wernt irc operators, they wernt getting paid and had little or no access to oper resources to find out info for news updates, everything they made was info they required from the irc operators. Though keeping in mind the channel was setup to reduce the load work of users going into #feds whinging or whinging their Q/L bot wasnt working when it was just users who didnt have an understanding, #help was there to assist the users with the little Q/L problems not news updates.
I like the saying though "No news is good news" 
| Calum wrote: |
I've managed to forget several points I was going to add so will add them in due course |
All points are valid and taken into consideration, but there is a whole lot of QuakeNet than what you can see and a lot of work does go on behind the scenes like you said to ensure quakenet remains the best of the networks, so dont be disheartened if you dont get a response from quakenet opers, it's something thats always been since quakenet was 400 users years ago, its never changed and will never anytime soon i think. |
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Calum
none
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Jun 20, 2007 10:35am Post subject: Re: Quakenet - has the largest network lost interest? |
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| mouselike wrote: |
Most users online are or act like 15 year old kids, but the simple fact is most irc operators these days be it large or small networks are actually teenagers.
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Quakenet's staff are mostly 18+ I believe hence the lack of interest from some (family commitments etc.)
| Quote: |
There maybe reasons preventing them giving an explanation or annoucement, my reasons could be that iirc the forums used the accounts from Q for its forum users, there maybe been a bug, someone exploited and abused it or seen the forum itself wasnt workable or didnt offer the stuff they required for a working forum intergrated with their website and services, who knows thats my view on it.
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I understand but even a cover up post, for example "Sorry but we have decided to close the forum, sorry for any inconvience." Any one with proper knowledge about pr knows if you're pleasing the users and intergrating with them then you're more likely to spread the word of media organizations will form good opinions.
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I think you are getting side tracked as to what QuakeNet really is, it is an IRC network, its intentions is to be the irc network with real time chat, not a public forum community, the forum was an added bonus or like the flake in the ice cream, it isnt needed but it was given to the users as an alternative way of discussing glines, development of services, meetings etc, and even though this cant be achived via the forums as you quite rightly put they have gone, you can still discuss them on their channels.
Some things are best kept quiet for the sake of complications from people who are just set out to cause havoc. Security through obscurity comes to mind with things that could possibly cause potential harm to its userbase, services or servers.
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I understand also but because the network is so big it needs to keep it's users up to date and allow each other to discuss things as it's very hard to find the 'right' people as it has many channels and users therefore everyone cannot know each other. Communication is how Quakenet exists.
It's very understandable to keep things private in such exceptional circumstances but we haven't been told anything this year really, 3 news posts. Pretty poor in my opinion.
| Quote: |
You assume that it's just opers that do the work of glines, sometimes these abusing users you are on about get caught out by quakenets own services, like proxyscans, spamscan or genuinly do deserve it. And if you think the germans are being racially abused by opers, then you should try being an op in a large support channel or even an oper and you will soon become to learn that a gline or ban is neither more than the best option. I aint aiming that at german users, uk users (yes i am in the uk but dont abuse lol) aswell as alot of other european countries who just dont know how to behave on a free public median which isnt a right but a priv to them.
On another note I would imagine running the largest network currently is no easy task, yes opering up and idling there is the easiest thing possible and those opers should either be made to be active whilst on oper status or asked to deoper etc, though as you mentioned there is a lot going on behind the scenes of running a network, you got to stop and consider that the servers sponsored to quakenet are infact those irc servers of large isp/gaming networks with probably paid users, who then naturally get 1st privillage over the irc network users; aswel as maintaing the servers and its network structure requires time, consultation for any changes to be made and done etc. So yes i agree with you but they may have legit reasons for being idle and intorrable to teens who are just set out to annoy rather than be helpful.
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I know there are many services which deal with things but I've seen so many incidents where kids have 'sucked' up and been killed/glined - does ignore or channel ban not work?
Understandably it is a very big network and you can't really say much as you have no exp. whatsoever in running something so big but it would be good if Quakenet would take in the crtitismand not just ignore views of their users.
| Quote: |
If quakenet had given up it wouldnt be where it is at now and growing. Though irc is no competion. If quakenet drops down in the ""chart"" to 2nd i dont think that they would be bothered as they still are a unique network and for a rule of no wares network and holding position #1 i think that quite clearly shows they havent given up but actually done some good work at good efforts at all cost to become such a success.
News reports from the help team isnt required. When #help started it was started by users who wernt irc operators, they wernt getting paid and had little or no access to oper resources to find out info for news updates, everything they made was info they required from the irc operators. Though keeping in mind the channel was setup to reduce the load work of users going into #feds whinging or whinging their Q/L bot wasnt working when it was just users who didnt have an understanding, #help was there to assist the users with the little Q/L problems not news updates.
I like the saying though "No news is good news"
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I have some comments re this however i have broke my arm in the space of writing this article and therefore slow typing!
Thanks for your views. |
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mouselike
Lurker
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Jun 20, 2007 12:19pm Post subject: |
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I totally understand with what your saying and i dont disagree with any of it.
The bit where you said about use of /ignore. I fully back you up on this. I have been a victim of oper abuse on numerous occasions, and yes by quakenet staff where i was seen as the trouble maker rather than the one who was getting the trouble, they seen right and fit to gline me as i was making the complain, this is unacceptable but as its free medium we have no right to complaint really though we do, they can chose not to listen and/or just delete the complaint.
I would mention the names of them opers but I aint one to flame a person only so id rather mention/just say quakenet as a whole, saves arguement.
The part i slightly disagree with you on though is, i didnt reference quakenet in general to having youngsters as opers, though the topic is only about quakenet, since i joined qn in 1997/8 (cant remember which year) some of these opers were actually just teens young adults that had nothing better todo on a weekend other than irc.
Hell i was a kid releatively speeking when i joined irc, though i've never opered on a big network, i oper on a network the size of quakenet once was when i joined and i see opers from the ages of 40 - 13 link servers in and abuse users and channels. If they have the power to abuse or gline they will. It makes them look and feel better when infact all they are doing is making slight indentations to their userbase peek. |
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magpie
Idler
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Essex, UK
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| Posted: Jul 02, 2007 4:49pm Post subject: |
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| It's not just a symptom of age that can cause staff to lose interest. People can also suffer from burnout. |
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thinktank
none
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Jul 03, 2007 1:55am Post subject: well, in my opinion.. |
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Well, in my opinion age do not always positively correlated to MATURITY..
However, regardless Quakenet IRC Opers are young or old or even very old, they are not really friendly to its users..
They dont know how to maintain its users. Why?! because most of them are unlikely to be open-minded. They are likely not to be THERE when their users needs their help. They dont likely to cooperate with its users.. sometimes they even ignored them.. huh.. |
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mentor
Newbie
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 66
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Jul 04, 2007 5:09pm Post subject: |
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This isn't unique to QuakeNet, but seems to be the vast majority of IRC networks, in general. Most nets are declining in userbase, not growing -- QuakeNet being one of them (33% less users than from 2005). I don't think this has to do with the network itself giving up, but mostly because there are way more options now (some far easier than IRC) to carry on a good conversation.
As for not informing users... Perhaps there are no news updates simply because there just really isn't that much to report about.
And, I'd have to agree with magpie...some opers burnout. It's actually quite easy to. |
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thinktank
none
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Jul 07, 2007 12:57am Post subject: |
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burnout until they cannot handle small things like the closing of #jakarta channel.
Wow, seems that they act like "IM BUSY, HAVE NO TIME TO DISCUSS IT, I HAVE THE POWER, THEN WHAT?!"
They just closed that channel without giving other potential users to join and register it.. those who has will to protect and develop the channel... they should realize that.. but, what they do, they closed it. THEY EVEN CLOSED THEIR EYES AND EARS about it.. if you join #Help for asking help about the #jakarta channel, then you'll be Banned..
What about if they're just a regular users who know nothing about it, is it so proper just to ban them, as if because of somebody's mistake, it becomes everybody mistakes..
If you see #jakarta , #bawel , #yogyakarta , #bandung , #medan in DALnet IRC Network, those channel are increasing day by day.. why, because there is good management.. but why it's not working in Quakenet?! Because they dont give it chances..
Thanx God #medan, #bandung and #indonesia is still opened there.. at least there're still place for indonesian users to chat there..
Quakenet has great chances to increase its users and even maintain them with great services their offer.. however, it's about how you maintain and attract them.. |
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mentor
Newbie
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 66
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Jul 07, 2007 5:28am Post subject: |
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| thinktank wrote: | burnout until they cannot handle small things like the closing of #jakarta channel.
Wow, seems that they act like "IM BUSY, HAVE NO TIME TO DISCUSS IT, I HAVE THE POWER, THEN WHAT?!"
They just closed that channel without giving other potential users to join and register it.. those who has will to protect and develop the channel... they should realize that.. but, what they do, they closed it. THEY EVEN CLOSED THEIR EYES AND EARS about it.. if you join #Help for asking help about the #jakarta channel, then you'll be Banned..
What about if they're just a regular users who know nothing about it, is it so proper just to ban them, as if because of somebody's mistake, it becomes everybody mistakes..
If you see #jakarta , #bawel , #yogyakarta , #bandung , #medan in DALnet IRC Network, those channel are increasing day by day.. why, because there is good management.. but why it's not working in Quakenet?! Because they dont give it chances..
Thanx God #medan, #bandung and #indonesia is still opened there.. at least there're still place for indonesian users to chat there..
Quakenet has great chances to increase its users and even maintain them with great services their offer.. however, it's about how you maintain and attract them.. |
I don't know how exactly QuakeNet operates, or how their staff handles user queries, so I'm not trying to say some complaints brought up are not warranted. However, there are a lot of things that go on "behind the scenes" when trying to maintain a large network that users are not privy to. These "things" alone could easily burnout an individual. And, you throw user complaints / bitching / moaning on top of that, and the chances increase even more.
Now, I'm not saying that entitles opers to be rude towards users, but I can easily understand how one may snap here and there -- I've been in similiar situations.
That said, from past experiences, I have found channel closings not to be small issues. In fact, they are very time consuming. You usually have several very upset users involved, most all of which will be unwilling to negotiate.
As for those channels you mentioned on DALnet, their success has nothing to do with DALnet itself, but rather the operators of those channels.
IRC, in general, is on a decline. Most networks have far fewer users than they did a year or two ago. So, I'm not sure whether it's completely fair to say QuakeNet is loosing users due to poor management. Then again, I don't hang around there, heh. |
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Calum
none
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Aug 08, 2007 7:29am Post subject: |
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| I presume Quakenet's staff got bored and wanted to give children back their toys. The forum is back. |
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ircmojo
Lurker
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 215
Location: $HOME sweet $HOME
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| Posted: Aug 09, 2007 5:42pm Post subject: |
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| mentor wrote: | | IRC, in general, is on a decline. Most networks have far fewer users than they did a year or two ago. So, I'm not sure whether it's completely fair to say QuakeNet is loosing users due to poor management. Then again, I don't hang around there, heh. |
I'd like to add though that the number of network gets higher everyday, so some are migrating from large networks to smaller ones .. but yes IRC does seem to be declining some. |
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mentor
Newbie
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 66
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2007 2:42am Post subject: |
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| ircmojo wrote: |
I'd like to add though that the number of network gets higher everyday, so some are migrating from large networks to smaller ones .. but yes IRC does seem to be declining some. |
Although, it is hard to say just how large a role migration plays in the decline. Some networks aren't indexed, while the vast majority of those that are don't have the user counts to suggest mass migration.
In my opinion, IRC is on a decline due to easier to use, and more feature-packed chat mediums. While the server<>server protocol has greatly improved over the users for IRC, the user experience has changed very little. |
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Calum
none
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2007 5:26am Post subject: |
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I think I'm going to have to admit I'm wrong on some things I said because there are many people on Quakenet who do lots to keep Quakenet in place. The forums are back which I suppose can only be a good thing. I've seen some positive changes to the website.
I suppose there's a trend in declining activity on big IRC networks but Quakenet is the most popular and I think will be for some time to come. |
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ircmojo
Lurker
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 215
Location: $HOME sweet $HOME
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2007 7:43am Post subject: |
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| mentor wrote: | | ircmojo wrote: |
I'd like to add though that the number of network gets higher everyday, so some are migrating from large networks to smaller ones .. but yes IRC does seem to be declining some. |
Although, it is hard to say just how large a role migration plays in the decline. Some networks aren't indexed, while the vast majority of those that are don't have the user counts to suggest mass migration.
In my opinion, IRC is on a decline due to easier to use, and more feature-packed chat mediums. While the server<>server protocol has greatly improved over the users for IRC, the user experience has changed very little. |
I agree whole heartedly.
As a person that stands by RFC1459 and what it's for, I'm also a firm believer that if someing is added to IRC that is not covered in the RFC, then it's not a violation of protocol, so IRC can be vastly expanded, IMO, and still be RFC compliant.
I believe that the RFC should be the foundation of IRC, not the entire contents of. All servers and clients should fundamentally compliant and then add the "extras" afterwards.
The total lack of a supported RFC update is not helping either. Sure you have RFC 281x, but lets be honest about that, it's only supported by a very small handfull of ircds. The largest majority of IRC's population/networks do not use 281x nor care to.
one thing that I find very funny is that many of the "features" in IM's such as realtime chat, group chat windows, file sending, profiles ... etc .. can be and is also available in IRC with little to no modification. Yet other features such as avatars, smilies, webcam/video support can be too. The protocol is text only, that doesn't mean that the clients display must also be text only. Example is that mIRC's scripting language is powerful enough to do text replacement. It could in theory replace a ":)" with a smiley in it's display exactly the same way this forum does it. mIRC of course as a client can not display images in chat windows, but it's possible without ever changing the protocol, yet no client that I'm aware of has done so. Video support has been included in atleast 1 client since the mid 90's, yet hardly any IRC'ers use it and as a result the client is no longer maintained. This same client also has a built in media player GUI, not just backend support for playing music.
No, the IRC protocl doesn't include webcam/streaming video support, but you know what? .. the very same protocol doesn't include DCC support either, yet nearly every client in existance can use DCC. So clients are just as much to blame as the fact of a stale protocol development.
So the support of many of the features in IM's can exist with IRC if it doesn't already. Client authors just haven't/don't wish to support them.
UPDATE: IceChat found at: http://www.icechat.net/ supports emoticons/smilieys as well as buddylists. |
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mentor
Newbie
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 66
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2007 4:55pm Post subject: |
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| ircmojo wrote: |
I agree whole heartedly.
As a person that stands by RFC1459 and what it's for, I'm also a firm believer that if someing is added to IRC that is not covered in the RFC, then it's not a violation of protocol, so IRC can be vastly expanded, IMO, and still be RFC compliant.
I believe that the RFC should be the foundation of IRC, not the entire contents of. All servers and clients should fundamentally compliant and then add the "extras" afterwards.
The total lack of a supported RFC update is not helping either. Sure you have RFC 281x, but lets be honest about that, it's only supported by a very small handfull of ircds. The largest majority of IRC's population/networks do not use 281x nor care to.
one thing that I find very funny is that many of the "features" in IM's such as realtime chat, group chat windows, file sending, profiles ... etc .. can be and is also available in IRC with little to no modification. Yet other features such as avatars, smilies, webcam/video support can be too. The protocol is text only, that doesn't mean that the clients display must also be text only. Example is that mIRC's scripting language is powerful enough to do text replacement. It could in theory replace a " " with a smiley in it's display exactly the same way this forum does it. mIRC of course as a client can not display images in chat windows, but it's possible without ever changing the protocol, yet no client that I'm aware of has done so. Video support has been included in atleast 1 client since the mid 90's, yet hardly any IRC'ers use it and as a result the client is no longer maintained. This same client also has a built in media player GUI, not just backend support for playing music.
No, the IRC protocl doesn't include webcam/streaming video support, but you know what? .. the very same protocol doesn't include DCC support either, yet nearly every client in existance can use DCC. So clients are just as much to blame as the fact of a stale protocol development.
So the support of many of the features in IM's can exist with IRC if it doesn't already. Client authors just haven't/don't wish to support them.
UPDATE: IceChat found at: http://www.icechat.net/ supports emoticons/smilieys as well as buddylists. |
I completely agree.
The single largest hurdle to IRC containing IM-like features is the IRC client authors themselves. There really is no need for the server to interpret the data people send to each other, that is the job of the client.
When developers of both the ircds and clients start collaborating more, then the user experience overall will improve. |
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