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rakaur
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Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Jun 14, 2005 9:43am Post subject: |
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It's called "global kline" because that's what it is; it isn't a gline. In TSora, klines and glines are different. Shrike sends a kline to each server on the network. Glines require votes and all that crap, and I didn't want to deal with that. I wanted it to be like AKILL on cygnus.
nenolod's been very good about keeping some things in atheme that were from shrike, and I appreciate it (eg, the easter egg ;). Atheme is his program, and he can do whatever he likes with the BSD code, but it's nice that he keeps some traditionality.
Makes me feel important. ;) |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1099
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| Posted: Jun 14, 2005 11:30am Post subject: |
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| rakaur wrote: | It's called "global kline" because that's what it is; it isn't a gline. In TSora, klines and glines are different. Shrike sends a kline to each server on the network. Glines require votes and all that crap, and I didn't want to deal with that. I wanted it to be like AKILL on cygnus.
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Do you really think the average IRCop/Admin really cares about the technical differences? I know I don't and I care even less about "easter eggs". IRC administration can be confusing enough by it's self without having 500 names for the same basic concept or 500 definitions for the same word.
klines have always banned users from a local server. Are you banning users from your services server? No, therefore from at least 1 point of view services shouldn't have klines because there are no real clients that connect to the services server and there is a fundamental difference between banning users from your local server and banning users from a remote server. Traditionally the "g" in gline means "global" .. as in Global kline and that definition goes back at least 8 years. This is nothing more than technical semantics.
Also it's not written anywhere that glines *must* require votes except maybe your ircd/services your using or your network policy. I've used gline hundreds of times and never once needed "votes" to set it. |
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nenolod
Idler
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 333
Location: A box!
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| Posted: Jun 15, 2005 12:29am Post subject: |
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| katsklaw wrote: | | rakaur wrote: | | It's called "global kline" because that's what it is; it isn't a gline. In TSora, klines and glines are different. Shrike sends a kline to each server on the network. Glines require votes and all that crap, and I didn't want to deal with that. I wanted it to be like AKILL on cygnus. |
Do you really think the average IRCop/Admin really cares about the technical differences? I know I don't and I care even less about "easter eggs". IRC administration can be confusing enough by it's self without having 500 names for the same basic concept or 500 definitions for the same word. |
Two things -- first off, if you have an issue with people calling things by different names, perhaps you should write an RFC. It would make a positive change to the community.
Secondly, there are people who do like to keep the original feel of Shrike alive. You may not be one of them, that is your choice, but there are those (who are on our development team) who do. We handle the development, we make the decisions. The code is BSD licensed -- so if you have an issue with it, you are free to fork it.
| katsklaw wrote: | | klines have always banned users from a local server. Are you banning users from your services server? No, therefore from at least 1 point of view services shouldn't have klines because there are no real clients that connect to the services server and there is a fundamental difference between banning users from your local server and banning users from a remote server. Traditionally the "g" in gline means "global" .. as in Global kline and that definition goes back at least 8 years. This is nothing more than technical semantics. |
According to RFC2812, this is not true. Most modern IRCd's are starting to adopt 2812 (although most are not adopting Kalt's server protocol). KLINES are just an ACL system. They can be either local or GLOBAL. Unreal's documentation explains this concept fairly well.
| katsklaw wrote: | | Also it's not written anywhere that glines *must* require votes except maybe your ircd/services your using or your network policy. I've used gline hundreds of times and never once needed "votes" to set it. |
A GLINE is a Global KLINE. This is documented in Unreal's documentation, so if the oper was intelligent enough to read the docs, he would understand this.
EFnet IRCd's require voting on a GLINE in order to activate it. This is to prevent abuse in such a chaotic environment. Given Atheme's origin (a set of Services aimed at EFnet-based ircd's), it makes perfect sense to use the original Shrike terminology. It's one of those things that makes Atheme different and interesting/challenging to learn.
On most services packages, it's called AKILL by the way, not GLINE.
I feel like mentioning one more thing: rakaur was offering you a friendly explanation for why it is called that, and you attacked his post. If you don't like how we do things, there are alternatives out there such as Anope. |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1099
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| Posted: Jun 15, 2005 1:22am Post subject: |
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EFnet IRCd's require voting on a GLINE in order to activate it. This is to prevent abuse in such a chaotic environment. Given Atheme's origin (a set of Services aimed at EFnet-based ircd's), it makes perfect sense to use the original Shrike terminology. It's one of those things that makes Atheme different and interesting/challenging to learn.
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EFnet calls a gline a global kline, read their FAQ and given "Shrike's/Atheme's origin" it should honor that "terminology" as well. My comments about the vote requirement is nothing more than a simple reminder that not all ircds require such, especially since atheme supports so many ircds.
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On most services packages, it's called AKILL by the way, not GLINE.
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We are talking about Atheme, not "other services packages". Please keep to the topic.
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I feel like mentioning one more thing: rakaur was offering you a friendly explanation for why it is called that, and you attacked his post. If you don't like how we do things, there are alternatives out there such as Anope.
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I wasn't attacking his post, I was correcting the error in his "friendly explaination" where he specificlly said that a gline is not a global kline when in fact that's exactlly what it is (on many nets at that). I was also sharing my opinion about how frustrating it is dealing with such "bastardized" labels for features commonly found all over IRC. So if your going to accuse me of anything .. accuse me for something I actually did .. like veering off topic. Since his explaination was inaccurate my question goes unanswered but no matter.
Good luck with your project. |
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nenolod
Idler
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 333
Location: A box!
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| Posted: Jun 15, 2005 1:09pm Post subject: |
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katsklaw, how exactly was his answer inaccurate? He explained that Shrike/Atheme circumvents the GLINE code by sending out a KLINE to all servers.
Could I call it AKILL in Atheme? Yes, I could.
Will I rename it to AKILL? Maybe.
That doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is, his explanation was valid and you "corrected" him. Most of the EFnet ircd coders agree with our assessment.
You seem to keep forgetting that Atheme is not targeted at the same audience of network administrators that uses Anope and likes their decision. It's not for those people at all.
Deal with it. |
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rakaur
none
Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 9:08am Post subject: |
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You misunderstood my post. It sends a KLINE command, not a GLINE command. Thus, it's a kline, not a gline. I don't care about some obscure definition of what a gline is, I'm talking protocol.
I fail to understand how it's any more obscure than "AKILL." AKILL isn't an oper-usable command, it's ulines only. OTOH, kline is a command that's been around forever. Unless you're originally from the DALnet-style networks (which shrike was never, ever aimed at, mind you), kline is a much more intuitive name. However, I never named it because it was intuitive, I named it because it's right.
If you really dislike it that much, change it in the source yourself. Meanwhile, the other 99.9% of users will be content. I mean, it's just a name. Deal with it.
| katsklaw wrote: | | Do you really think the average IRCop/Admin really cares about the technical differences? I know I don't and I care even less about "easter eggs". |
Maybe not, but I do.
| katsklaw wrote: | | klines have always banned users from a local server. |
Wrong. In TSora, you can send any kline to any server so long as they're configured to accept it. Please keep in mind shrike was in fact written for TSora, not your pothead DALnet daemons.
| katsklaw wrote: | | Traditionally the "g" in gline means "global" .. as in Global kline and that definition goes back at least 8 years. This is nothing more than technical semantics. |
I looked all over this paragraph for a point, but I'll be damned if I could find one.
| katsklaw wrote: | | Also it's not written anywhere that glines *must* require votes except maybe your ircd/services your using or your network policy. I've used gline hundreds of times and never once needed "votes" to set it. |
Again, TSora daemons require voting on glines so idiots can't ban whoever they want from the entire network. I'm sure DALnet restricts who can set AKILLs. Unreal doesn't require votes, and I'm betting that's what you use. You seem like the type.
Have a nice day. |
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magpie
Idler
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 454
Location: Essex, UK
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 10:25am Post subject: |
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| rakaur wrote: | | Unreal doesn't require votes, and I'm betting that's what you use. You seem like the type. |
Lets not try and start another flame about Unreal shall we? For the record, some of the largest IRC networks in the world (and their ircds) don't require votes. Are they the type too? |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1099
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 10:59am Post subject: |
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rakaur,
1. you seem to forget that Atheme supports other non-EFnet ircds.
2. Not all ircds are TSora.
3. a kline has always been a local server ban, even EFnet says so. in fact most of the FAQ's that I have read state that not only is it a server ban but one that is inserted manually into the ircd's conf file.
4. Since Atheme supports multiple ircds you'll do nothing but confuse potential users if you do nothing but refer to it from the EFnet/TSora side. ie the voting gline, which it seems only EFnet has.
5. As I said before, not all admin think or even want to think on such a technical level. They are more interested in running their network, so your adding even more confusion by being much more technical that you really need to be.
6. No, my net doesn't use Unreal. I oper on one that does .. but that's not my choice.
7. Your right I did misunderstand your post. nenolod explained it a bit differently and now I understand what you were saying and like I said earlier, not everyone is TSora or EFnet.
8. I just happen to be from DALnet, so yes .. klines have been around forever 
9. your "pothead" network zealotry is just going to give you a negitive image you might want to think about stopping. (just some friendly advice)
10. Just incase you forgot .. the projects name is Atheme .. not Shrike. Atheme includes support for ircds that have features that are beyond your explainations.
11. DALnet does limit who can set akills, Services Admins and above. They also are required to submit in writing to the kline team why they set the akill. This keeps the network safer because an oper can single handedly react to a major crisis then explain his/her actions later and doesn't have to wait for 2 other people to agree that 500 clones are flooding services and then hope that all servers will honor the akill. (Dont get technical on the example because it can't happen on DALnet these days either.)
12. A long time standing rule is to trust your opers, if you give an oline to an "idiot" that's your problem.
Good day,
kat |
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shamrock
none
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 4:17pm Post subject: Where have all the web sites gone? |
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| I'd love to try Atheme, but all the links are dead. |
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nenolod
Idler
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 333
Location: A box!
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 8:21pm Post subject: Re: Where have all the web sites gone? |
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| shamrock wrote: | | I'd love to try Atheme, but all the links are dead. |
The download link should be active again, we've been having some routing problems with twisted throughout the day.
The wiki is down for a few days while it's connectivity is traded out for speakeasy DSL vs. Qwest DSL. nick125 has been having problems keeping his connection stable in that respect. |
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rakaur
none
Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 8:35pm Post subject: |
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| katsklaw wrote: | | 1. you seem to forget that Atheme supports other non-EFnet ircds. |
Right. My explaination was why its features are named the way they are. That is because it's based on shrike, which is TSora-only. There's little reason to change it.
| katsklaw wrote: | | 2. Not all ircds are TSora. |
No, but shrike only works on TSora. And, if you haven't noticed by now, I'm explaining that atheme's names came from shrike which came from TSora. You seem to be ignoring that. I know atheme supports tons of ircds, but even if you say that, where's your logic for renaming them? What do you suggest, renaming them for every single ircd? Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
| katsklaw wrote: | | 3. a kline has always been a local server ban, even EFnet says so. in fact most of the FAQ's that I have read state that not only is it a server ban but one that is inserted manually into the ircd's conf file. |
Wrong. In TSora, a kline is a server ban, but it can be set by anyone on any server to any server, if so configured. You can put klines in a config file, or you can set them via /kline.
| katsklaw wrote: | | 4. Since Atheme supports multiple ircds you'll do nothing but confuse potential users if you do nothing but refer to it from the EFnet/TSora side. ie the voting gline, which it seems only EFnet has. |
It's a name. I think they'll live.
| katsklaw wrote: | | 9. your "pothead" network zealotry is just going to give you a negitive image you might want to think about stopping. (just some friendly advice) |
I'm from EFnet. If anyone doesn't know about the "friendly rivalry" between EFnetters and DALnetters want to think less of me, that's fine.
| katsklaw wrote: | | 12. A long time standing rule is to trust your opers, if you give an oline to an "idiot" that's your problem. |
Yeah, it's good on paper; however, we both know it applies to neither EFnet nor DALnet.
My whole point is I'm explaining where the name came from, and why. You're explaining why it shouldn't be named something. I honestly don't understand how this has grown to such an asinine disagreement.
Maybe it's because you're from DALnet. ;) |
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nenolod
Idler
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 333
Location: A box!
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 9:26pm Post subject: |
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| katsklaw wrote: | | 9. your "pothead" network zealotry is just going to give you a negitive image you might want to think about stopping. (just some friendly advice) |
What "pothead" network zealotry? Come on, get real. This isn't network zealotry, this is reality. Either be constructive or get off the thread, it's getting old. |
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radius
Lurker
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 9:57pm Post subject: |
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this thread started off informative and then took a drastic U-Turn off a cliff ...
remember if you have nothing positive to add keep it to yourself - nenolod and his team are trying to offer Admins an alternative solution to what's out there - let's give his team some support and stay off broken record.
Thank you! |
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nenolod
Idler
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 333
Location: A box!
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2005 10:09pm Post subject: |
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| radius wrote: | this thread started off informative and then took a drastic U-Turn off a cliff ...
remember if you have nothing positive to add keep it to yourself - nenolod and his team are trying to offer Admins an alternative solution to what's out there - let's give his team some support and stay off broken record.
Thank you! |
Finally, someone gets it! 
Oh, we're very close to a 0.2 release candidate. I'd like to thank Trystan for pointing out some issues in the code early on. Once we get our network setup stablized we should be in a pretty good situation.
The core is approximately 90% complete. Once we finish the core, we will start working on SQLite read/write.
OperServ is a lot further along, than it was last time I actually made an update. For instance we have a JUPE now, as well as a very very advanced NOOP system for restricting operator access:
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# Restrict opers on *.oscnet.org from opering.
/msg OperServ NOOP ADD SERVER *.oscnet.org
# Restrict users on AOL from opering.
/msg OperServ NOOP ADD HOSTMASK *.aol.com
# Restrict a specific user from opering.
/msg OperServ NOOP ADD HOSTMASK *moogle!*@*.square-enix.co.jp
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etcetera.
Protocol support is now modularized as well.
I'd like to personally thank radius for testing out the converter and reporting back on it's ability to convert. Hopefully I will be able to work on that more effectively soon.
I'd also like to thank jilles for his help with the hyperion and ratbox protocol support modules.
Anyway, a 0.2 rc will be out sometime this weekend. |
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nenolod
Idler
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 333
Location: A box!
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