My review of Bersirc.

olene · Posted: May 20, 2005 8:50pm Post subject: My review of Bersirc.

This is a story of my personal experience with Bersirc. This is exactly what happened.

Hi. One of the people I chat with recommended a client called 'bersirc' to me. I thought I would try it out, if not for any other reason, the name was creative.

So, I download and install this program. The installation was very fast, and the download very lightweight. I was pleased. I launched Bersirc. I was no longer pleased.

The first thing I'm greeted to is a large white window: http://www.olene.net/bers.gif
The window had a text box, a graphic with the text "New profile", and about 30 acres of whitespace. It also had a 'close' box at the bottom. Uh... yeah. ok. Looks like another case of "PTLTFCS" (or Programmer's too lazy to fix colors syndrome). This happens when the window designer leaves the text as it's default "System Text Color" color, but changes the backcolor of the window to white (assuming that people will have black text). All of this fails when people (that have visual disabilities, impared vision, or good taste) invert their color scheme, and the program turns to useless windows of marshmellow clouds. Yeah.. whatever.

So, I click close. Next thing I know the program is connecting to my BNC. WTF? I didn't give it my BNC information. I've never even had this program. At this point I'm assuming that this program, not respecting the users privacy, decides it's going to find my mIRC directory and copy all of my settings from that, including but not limited to my nickname, servers, passwords, timestamps, color scheme. Screw that. So i finally connect to a server. I made the mistake of connecting to a server that requires a CTCP Version reply to connect. I say 'mistake' because bersirc not only doesn't reply to the CTCP, but it doesn't let me type "/noversion" (the command to skip over the version check if your client hangs). It gives me a nice little error message... "Not connected to server". I check netstat.. and low and behold... it IS connected. So now bersirc is lying to me. I type "/quote noversion" to get around that (which shouldn't even matter because they should both do the same thing ANYWAY, since /noversion isn't a client command).

So now i'm on the server. And i go to oper up. But I can't. Why the hell not. Password mismatch. I know my password, and this is correct. At this point I'm weary of giving bersirc my oper password because it's probably going to overwrite my mirc background with it or something stupid. So I connect locally to my own ircd, and try to oper up there.. No dice. I put the server in debug mode and look at the tcp stream... it's placing a !@#$@#! colon in front of my oper password. My oper password doesn't contain spaces. This not only isn't necessary.. it's downright stupid. I don't go around saying "/names :#channel" or "/part :#channel" or "/whois :nickname". Absolutely no reason for this, however, i'll let this one slide, because if one were to interpret the outdated RFC1459 literally, it would say that all parameters are treated equally.. blah. Ok .. whatever.. so I go back to the other server and '/quote oper' up. Since i don't have my mirc operup script, i now have to change my info manually. So i go to /setident and...... no. "/setident no such command". the client is lying again. At no point did i see the client download a /stats m or a /help or any list of commands from the server at all. Now it's telling me that this command doesn't exist. But, if i /quote setident .. it does. Yeah... ok.

At this point I figure, "maybe i can script some of this to work correctly", so I make the mistake of opening Script Editor... and gee.. i wonder what kind of language this uses. PASCAL! great. At this point, I decide to quit and uninstall this. And then i go and delete the other crap it installed including, but not limited to, a winamp plugin. I don't even wanna know what that does. I assume it creates those god-awful annoying "/me is playing BRITNEY SPEARS - I REALLY AM A VIRGIN.mp3 RIPPED BY WAR3ZKInG #XXXWAREZ BABY at 2370370Kbps <<<128 BIT STEREO>>>" messages.

Yeah. ok..

Rob_ · Idler Joined: 13 Dec 2003 Posts: 309

are you really this negative about everything, if you dont like a client, just dont use it. While i've never used biersirc. Im sure it has some good points which you didnt mention, im also farily sure some of the behaviour you were so upset about is a) unfamiliarity with the client, or b) your pre-concived expectations of how the client should work.

I know i face this problem every time i try out gnome as my windowing environment, i know its as good as kde, but i never enjoy trying it as im so used to how _my_ kde system is setup. If i spent the time configuring gnome, learnig how it does things, im sure i would be eqaully as happy with it as i am with kde.

magpie · Idler Joined: 18 Jan 2004 Posts: 454 Location: Essex, UK

So let me get this right, part of your criticism is that the client follows the RFC?

angelic · Lurker Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 148

Please stop doing these threads.

If there are bugs, report them.
If you have suggestions on how to improve things, suggest them.
If you want to review a piece of software, review it.

I haven't used this client (i'm pretty happy with kvirc) but i did have a nosy around their website and no where do i see any claim that "this will be the perfect client for olene".

There are a number of reasons your threads rile me, and you know what, i am going to list them in a "things i hate about olene's sirc threads ''#@##!!!!" style because just maybe you'll take a step back and actually _think_ before you post any more.

1) Most of the things you attack are opensource projects that people work on for free or for minimal monetary rewards. It is easy to become disheartened with a project when people come along and rip your work to pieces unfairly and unjustly, this stunts the development and progression of IRC.

2) You are, what my father would term, a know all, know bugger all. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, you can talk the talk, sure, but you have a lot to learn and what you are doing is making people not want to help you or work with you, making people disregard and ignore you. You have no respect for _anything_ people take time to create. You post under a guise of asking for advice and guidance but really you don't want to hear what people have to say. I know for an absolute fact that the unreal guys, the inspircd guys, the anope guys and a multitude of other irc related projects would give their time to anyone wanting to learn and ultimately give something back to the irc community, even on projects that are in competition with their own, i know this because _i_ have never been turned away and i must be pretty damn annoying with all my bloody questions, but, let me tell you, you are doing yourself no favours with the people in this community that can assist you and your projects. This seems odd to me because you seem to want to create something to move IRC forward.

You need to keep in favour with those people who can help you.

3) The first thing i ever read from you was whining about being a woman on IRC. I am a woman, i use irc, i am a wannabe geek, i manage the Anope IRC Services project, i work in an environment dominated by men. I have no problems at all and i have never had any. Do people assume i'm a guy? Of course they do. Am i bothered? Why on earth should i be?

This is an issue for you because you make it an issue and you're not doing women in this environment any favours by behaving like this.

I have a 14 year old female oper as part of my network admin team, she joined with little technical knowledge and a lot of enthusiasm. She carries herself far, far better than you and i am willing to bet she's learnt more and gained more from irc in the last six months than you have.

I can't work out your age, sometimes we can make allowances for people who lack experience.

4) Imagine, for one minute, you need berserc to tweak something to support your ircd.

5) Get Over Yourself.

6) I have to ask you why you are actually here, here on sirc and here on irc in general. Rarely do i hear you say anything positive about anything or partake in discussion that help anyone else but you. I am not saying that's inherently bad, we all use these boards for our own reasons, but you could improve the perception people have of you (which i am telling you, is pretty low at the moment) by actually offering help and advice and sharing knowledge rather than ramming your negative opinions of _everything_ down peoples pipes.

Why did you post these thread? What did you expect to get out of it? If it was to purely rant then go use your own blog, if it's because you actually thought people may use this when deciding on an IRC client then you failed.

7) I don't believe any bersirc devs check these boards (oh i could be wrong :)) but guess what? Anope devs do, so, please do a thread like this about anope then at least there are people here who can defend their product.

8) I'm serious about 7.

9) When you mock the displaying of things like away messages, mp3 scripts, the million other things that annoy you, you mock those people who use them. Tolerance is a great thing :) I have never used /ignore on anyone or anything because (and please don't be too shocked) i seem to be able to just leave the channels/networks i don't like, close the pm, or leave it open and just not read it, filter out the stuff in channels that aren't important to me and just take in the bits that are. It's amazing really.

10) Do you know what it's like to see something that you've put your heart and soul into creating grow and flourish and become one of those communities? What it feels like to give back to someone, someone just discovering the Internet, those same feelings of wonder and awe and warmth and community and friendship that you found? To receive, not the welcome random bit of thanks here and there, but the far deeper and more wonderful knowledge that you've built and maintained something that people are using and using to do things and see things and think things that they otherwise would never be able to do or would have no outlet for?

-- Russ Allbery, "A Rant about Usenet" :: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/writing/rant.html ::

I love this quote so much i emailed Russ Allbery and asked him if i could use it as part of my net's ethos and philosophy statement.

:: Summary ::

I am attacking you olene and in a lot of ways that is wrong AND against sirc's policy, so chances are this will be removed. BUT this is not just a personal attack. In you i see someone who has a lot to offer the wider irc community, these boards, irc software etc and it pisses me off to see you attack things just because you can, without thought of the consequences.

"Remember: When that hacker tells you that you've screwed up, and (no matter how gruffly) tells you not to do it again, he's acting out of concern for (1) you and (2) his community. It would be much easier for him to ignore you and filter you out of his life. If you can't manage to be grateful, at least have a little dignity, don't whine, and don't expect to be treated like a fragile doll just because you're a newcomer with a theatrically hypersensitive soul and delusions of entitlement."

"Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying them, visibly, in public."

"When you perceive rudeness, try to react calmly. If someone is really acting out, it is very likely that a senior person on the list or newsgroup or forum will call him or her on it. If that doesn't happen and you lose your temper, it is likely that the person you lose it at was behaving within the hacker community's norms and you will be considered at fault. This will hurt your chances of getting the information or help you want."

Quoted from How To Ask Questions The Smart Way by Eric Steven Raymond :: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html :: which everyone here should read :)

This is shit, that is shit.
This is nice, this could be done better.

You can get the exact same message across using those two sentences but one will preserve your integrity and one will not. One will encourage and one will disillusion. The key to IRC, that people keep forgetting, is communication and being able to communicate your thoughts and ideas is pretty bloody important and it's a skill you need to work on.

Jamie · none Joined: 06 May 2005 Posts: 36

Just because something is "open source," doesn't mean it should be exempt from user criticism. Look at the copious amount of (usually "open source") users bashing Microsoft, and the general excuse is "well, they're a commercial company, they deserve it." That's not fair. A piece of software should be rated based on its quality, not its licence.

I find it rather amusing that people -- Even yourself, feel it's OK to post threads belittling Olene and her work (disregarding SearchIRC's forum policy), yet if she retaliates, people bring forth the forum policy and the arbitrary netiquette.

Oh, well. IRC is based around drama. As the old saying goes: "The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about."

- Jamie O.

Rob_ · Idler Joined: 13 Dec 2003 Posts: 309

I think what angelic is saying is critisium is fine as long as it is constructive, helpful and fair. Olene openinly critisies the client for doing things which comply with the RFC, she dosnt offer a single good point to the client, makes no attempt at producing a blanaced review and comes across as having a bitch about it, at one point apperating to be complaining that her mirc script isnt "just there".

If you check angelic's previous comments on Olene's threads, particulally relating to her work on her ircd, you would find angelic has been on the whole supporting and encouraging. Even in this thread she is saying she believes Orlene has alot to offer the irc community. As for bringing the Microsoft vs Open Source debate into this thread, i really cant be bothered to feed that particullar troll, and i hope others dont either.

PingBad · Guru Joined: 05 Feb 2005 Posts: 1941 Location: New Zealand

I can see olene's position regarding Bersirc, but in my opinion she has basically laid into it with no regard to the developer's feelings. Criticism of a product (if read and interpreted in the right way) can help the developer improve their product, but taken (or worded) the wrong way would ultimately end up ina flame war. With that in mind, I think it could be better worded, olene

Roku · Newbie Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Posts: 92

PingBad · Guru Joined: 05 Feb 2005 Posts: 1941 Location: New Zealand

saved me a bunch of typing, well put

Jamie · none Joined: 06 May 2005 Posts: 36

Rob_:

Obviously you're going to side with your project members.

It's interesting that any view you (or many other users) do not agree with/cannot reply to is labelled a "troll." For a classic troll, have a read of this.

Everyone:

Going by your logic of "if you don't like it, don't use it," if you don't like reading Olene's posts, why read them -- or reply?

I concur, Olene is allowed to "bitch" (although I simply see it as another completely valid opinion), and you're allowed to reply in any fashion you wish. Hypocrites shouldn't bother posting their views, however.

Also, attitude isn't everything. Ability is.

- Jamie O.

angelic · Lurker Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 148

Hey Jamie,

This is a trend olene has decided to take and, as i said, rather than rile people with continual negativity about IRC, something everyone here is passionate about in some way or another, i hope she will start to contribue more positevly because she clearly has the knowledge and experience to do so.

The windows comparison was silly, imo, and there was no need to mention it. If a product has areas that could be improved upon then i am pretty sure any developers would welcome feedback. But this was not feedback, it was not constructive and it was uncalled for.

olene seems to want to be taken seriously by the irc community, indeed she has coded a number of IRCD's herself and i for one would like to see one of these projects succeed - diversity and choice has to be good for IRC. But while she continues to alienate herself in this way i cannot see this happening.

I would still really like to see a thread about anope's downfalls Smile

:: Toni

Roku · Newbie Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Posts: 92

Jamie · none Joined: 06 May 2005 Posts: 36

Roku:

Why would you defend a product you apparently dislike? There's no real logic in that, except perhaps pity? Do explain? What I mean by that is: Why would you support product A (a product which you don't use) unless you felt bad because a group of product B (which you use) users were bashing it for no real reason?

Hitler had the ability to execute his ideals, and he did. People actually liked his attitude, so much that in every greet they'd "heil" him. People respect him even today because of his ability. The ability to turn a floundering country into one of the most powerful of its time.

To use your political reference, this explains why Bush was re-elected. People like other people who sound positive, regardless of what they can do (or have done). Of course, this is incorrect.

I don't see the point of your reference to Einstein. Did you mean something like: "When Olene's gone, we'll finally understand her views of the world and IRC in general?"

By the way, I'm not using a "PC."

{Mod's Note: Removed a part of your post that was completely off-topic. (-ed) }

- Jamie O.

olene · Posted: May 21, 2005 11:26am Post subject:

First of all, the only reason I posted that here was because there was absolutely no one in the client's official channel besides a bot keeping the channel open. If someone posted some review like this on sirc, and i read it, this entire problem wouldn't have happened in the first place, so i posted it (in the chat forum no less, since there wasn't even a client forum) in hopes that it would be useful.

I'm not bashing the client. I'm telling you that I had 8 problems with it within the first 5 minutes of casual use. I use several other clients (klient, mirc, xchat, bitchx, pirch98, virc, even irssi once in a while) and have never encountered anything like this. I'm not bashing BersIRC because it follows the RFC. I'm bashing it because it failed to work with at least three different ircd's, and it's not clear which ircd the client was 'meant' to be run with, therefore i would expect it to be able to run on any ircd equally well, which isn't the case.

RFC1459 was the specification for ircd. As in proper-noun ircd. It's not the specification for hybrid, it's definitely not the specification for Unreal, and it will never be the specification for csircd. These ircd's all attempt to be backward compatible or "RFC1459 complient".. but that can't happen in every scenario. You're going to have more than 4 usermodes. You're going to have more than 9 channelmodes. Thats why the 005 numeric was formed, because IRC is a dynamic protocol with no concrete specification. This makes it rather hard or at least challenging
to code a client. So fine.. it's RFC compatible. It's /oper probably works fine on IRCnet, but it doesn't work where I need a client to be used, while all the other clients I mentioned above DO.

Don't sit here and act like RFC1459 is the only document that clients have to conform to. If you used a client that ignored every numeric that wasn't in the RFC, you'd be pretty mad or at least you'd stop using it.
IRC is floating, it is dynamic.

In other news...
I'm sorry if I came off as a bitch. I highly doubt any of you even use bersirc in the first place.. so you're not defending it against my review, you're defending your forum against me. Which sucks. I posted something negative because I thought it would be of use to someone. If i sent it to the developer(s) of bersirc, theyd read it, possibly throw it away, and no one would find it useful besides them. I'm not a bitch. I'm a cute and cuddly lil girl. Or at least I wish.
I didn't write this review BEFORE i use bersirc; so don't criticize me, my attitude, or even my style BEFORE you know me.

[DiMENSiON] · Eleet Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 617

i'm too lazy to read all of this but i just thought i'd add my 2cents.. i like bersirc not 100% perfect but i couldn't do any better Razz