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| Are you bored of constant unreal/anope networks? |
| Yes |
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43% |
[ 28 ] |
| No |
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29% |
[ 19 ] |
| Don't Care |
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27% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 65 |
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angelic
Lurker
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 148
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 Posted: Jun 05, 2005 4:01pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The last epona release was in august 2004, so i can't really call it "still in development" to be honest. I'd rather see it was a good try but they got stuck |
Have a nosy at epona's svn, they actually committed to it today. |
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nenolod
Idler
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 333
Location: A box!
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| Posted: Jun 05, 2005 5:05pm Post subject: |
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| GeniusDex wrote: | The only thing we really lack is a counter for "which services software is most used" like they have one for ircd's here on searchirc. Whoever makes it gets a cookie  |
I don't see the point in counting services/ircd popularity. Just because something is popular does not make it the best solution for a network's needs. Implementing popularity graphs would just contribute to the mentality of the average admin, which is to use whatever is "popular", even though it may not be what he/she needs. |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2026
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Jun 06, 2005 12:43am Post subject: |
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| GeniusDex wrote: | | The only thing we really lack is a counter for "which services software is most used" like they have one for ircd's here on searchirc. Whoever makes it gets a cookie |
The problem is that networks tend to hide their U:Lined servers, thus the crawl bots wouldn't be able to detect them in the links. Even if the services server name is found, how would the bots know that its a services pseudo-server?
Those technicalities aside, a version could be retrieved via remote /version (I know Unreal supports this, dunno about the rest) |
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angelic
Lurker
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Jun 06, 2005 3:13am Post subject: |
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| nenolod wrote: | | I don't see the point in counting services/ircd popularity. Just because something is popular does not make it the best solution for a network's needs. Implementing popularity graphs would just contribute to the mentality of the average admin, which is to use whatever is "popular", even though it may not be what he/she needs. |
I'm not one for popularity charts either but i think giving people as much information as possible to allow them to make decisions is a good thing.
You can find stats like this on most products, books, music, films, cars, supermarkets etc etc. |
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PingBad
Guru
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 2026
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Jun 06, 2005 5:00am Post subject: |
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| angelic wrote: | | nenolod wrote: | | I don't see the point in counting services/ircd popularity. Just because something is popular does not make it the best solution for a network's needs. Implementing popularity graphs would just contribute to the mentality of the average admin, which is to use whatever is "popular", even though it may not be what he/she needs. |
I'm not one for popularity charts either but i think giving people as much information as possible to allow them to make decisions is a good thing.
You can find stats like this on most products, books, music, films, cars, supermarkets etc etc. |
I'm not one for popularity charts either, but to view it from a different tack, it would also mean that if people went with the most popular it would mean that there are more people who can support you in the setting up and maintaining of a network. It would also lead to universalness or standardisation -- meaning compatibility, leading to less hassle about what product a given network runs (these days, a linking or merge ususally involves "What IRCd and Services do you run?" and sometimes involving one or more servers in a software change and configuration update.
With that in mind, going for the popular product(s) would lead towards less hassle for the average admin (a fair assumption is that most admins are very competent, but I have no doubt that there are a fair few admins out there that have little clue as to the more complex sides of things -- I myself admit that I'm not "up there" in the advanced realms of IRCd maintainance, but I am willing to learn and I am learning as I go)
Just my thoughts |
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angelic
Lurker
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Jun 06, 2005 6:17am Post subject: |
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| PingBad wrote: | | angelic wrote: | | nenolod wrote: | | I don't see the point in counting services/ircd popularity. Just because something is popular does not make it the best solution for a network's needs. Implementing popularity graphs would just contribute to the mentality of the average admin, which is to use whatever is "popular", even though it may not be what he/she needs. |
I'm not one for popularity charts either but i think giving people as much information as possible to allow them to make decisions is a good thing.
You can find stats like this on most products, books, music, films, cars, supermarkets etc etc. |
I'm not one for popularity charts either, but to view it from a different tack, it would also mean that if people went with the most popular it would mean that there are more people who can support you in the setting up and maintaining of a network. It would also lead to universalness or standardisation -- meaning compatibility, leading to less hassle about what product a given network runs (these days, a linking or merge ususally involves "What IRCd and Services do you run?" and sometimes involving one or more servers in a software change and configuration update.
With that in mind, going for the popular product(s) would lead towards less hassle for the average admin (a fair assumption is that most admins are very competent, but I have no doubt that there are a fair few admins out there that have little clue as to the more complex sides of things -- I myself admit that I'm not "up there" in the advanced realms of IRCd maintainance, but I am willing to learn and I am learning as I go)
Just my thoughts |
The only thing that concerns me here is the new projects and products that are trying to break into the market (so to speak). I think diversity and competition is _good_ and if we all used the most popular what would happen? We end up with microsoft directing and dictating the computer age (i know, a little dramatic but there's truth in those words).
The compatibility chart GD has created is good because it allows the end user to see what they're getting at a glance, where i think user stats would come in handy is where you have two products that basically do the same thing. I'd rather go with something that's widley used and therefore tested.
I can't WAIT for inspircd to go stable because i'll be the first to stick it on my network, yet there are only a handful of nets using it in beta. The thing is i want the freedom it will give me and that slightly outweighs my desire for reputation. (Plus i like supporting new, clueful projects).
I understand why neno is nervous about popularity charts but we all started somewhere (yanno anope has only been around for just over two years). Have confidence in your projects |
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w00t
Eleet
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 699
Location: Nowra, Australia
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| Posted: Jun 06, 2005 5:34pm Post subject: |
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| Om wrote: | As far as I know then the one's w00t is working on are private to netronet.
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(Open Source: No) nservices
We use our own custom-developed IRC services. At the present time, these are not publically available.
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Cheers |
"At the present time"  .
I wrote that much earlier on, back in the days of WinSE pre-pre-pre alphas (back when I was actually writing code on it) when I was planning a site upgrade. I'm still undecided, so if someone want's to try to persuade me one way or the other - I'd be interested. They're based entirely of GPL code, so it'd just be a matter of uploading a tarball or two. If you want to see them in action, hop over to irc.netronet.com - feel free to talk to me if i'm there . The website is currently located over on www.netronet.com/devel (but by the time you read this, it might be www.netronet.com). It's still undergoing development, so don't expect the nickserv login to work just yet however, the side panels (network status, stats and random channel) are all chosen from Services' contributions and updated regularly (I believe it's set at 5-10 minutes at least - Dumping stats everytime something changes isn't really an option, settings like nickserv stuff is fully real-time though.)
The main grab so far includes real-time (Read AND write) SQL support, although rather badly done. My future plans are currently a whole hogtie of bugfixes followed by a gradual implementation of modules support.
There's life in Epona yet?! Personally I think they'd be best off re-branching from anope (god that'd be funny) as anope has gone a lot further ahead (monolithic protocol support is so 2002)
Sirv 2.x is pretty much dead. So that can really be discarded . rserv I haven't heard of myself (if you've got a link, that'd be good and sirvx is nice.. but bloody hard to get working properly (if you want to use bahamut - figure out how to do it yourself).
A counter for services software wouldn't be easy, but not impossible. As most networks name it as services.netname.blah (at least, most i've seen) it's a pretty safe guess as to what to VERSION. (Allthough I don't think, say, ircu supports remote version requests).
@nenolod: Counting services popularity would serve mostly for the morbidly curious. I can't imagine most of the nublet new admins coming here, looking at that services chart and going "oh, i must use that!". Rather, they'll use what they've heard of or been recommended by a friend. (Hence why auspice just won't *die*!).
@angelic: Yes, information is good .
Anyhow, sorry for the long post I be off. |
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Dr-Voodo
Eleet
Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 535
Location: IRC
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| Posted: Jun 07, 2005 3:07am Post subject: |
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| Aren't we done with this thread yet? |
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GeniusDex
Lurker
Joined: 16 Aug 2003
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Jun 07, 2005 3:43am Post subject: |
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| Dr-Voodo wrote: | | Aren't we done with this thread yet? |
It's actually turning into a nice discussion, altough slightly off-topic here and there. Services aren't dead, there's more diversity coming up, and authors will have to do some work to keep up with all the changes. I think that what we'll put down as Anope 1.8 once we release it as a stable is not enough to stay ahead of the competition for 2 years, and probably even less. We will have to work to get new things done, we can't just sit down and wait for others to keep up with us.
There are actually some nice new irc products coming up here and there. There's a real good choice of IRCDs out there, the amount of different services packages out there is still expanding, and there's a small shift in stats packages.
There's a dead area with irc bots though. There's eggdrop and some homemade things which are no serious competition to eggdrop (ofcourse i don't know of all bots, but noone does). I'm actually working on some sort of IRC bot myself, aimed at general purpose usage. I'm not sure if there's a need for it, but we'll see once it's done. Don't expect it out there within a month though, it's still in early stages of development and there's enough to do before i reached some of the goals i set for it.
The only thing we're lacking though, is a protocol which has one implementation for one thing, not twenty different variations on the same protocol which each do things slightly different. |
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Dr-Voodo
Eleet
Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 535
Location: IRC
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| Posted: Jun 08, 2005 1:05am Post subject: |
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| Well I know there is plenty of Ircds out there, but in the end isnt it up to each person to decide which ircd he wants to run, for example Unreal. I think you can make like millions of posts about Why people use Unreal, and people will still use it no matter what. Personally I like Unreal but that doesn't stop me from trying other ircds. For instance I like Bahamut as well. And I have also tried different irc services too, like Irc Services, LakeServ (For windows) and Epona, Auspices etc.. but I find Anope the best for my solutions. |
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w00t
Eleet
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 699
Location: Nowra, Australia
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| Posted: Jun 08, 2005 5:58am Post subject: |
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Yes - but the problem is those who just think they set up an "mirc" or whatever - they tend to make uninformed choices, bad decisions, etc. This is something I was hoping the IRC-AG was going to resolve, amongst other things.. but it seems to have died.
Personally, I've used many many IRCds - from both an administration, programmatical, and users point of view - and I have to say I quite like bahamut. InspIRCd is also nice, but needs to be proven.
As for services, I've allways been a strong advocate of ircservices - with it's upcoming 1.8 release, anope is looking a reasonably viable candidate. Auspice sucks, although to the detriment of many - i've been hearing rumors about a 2.9 release soon. Kickservices I haven't heard too much on, but really I think Thilo is working from a fairly flawed base. LakeServ has issues - and I've never been able to find a download. Cygnus... seemed nice at first, but was very minimalist and crashed easily.
I've ranted enough - bye |
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Thilo
Guest
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| Posted: Jun 08, 2005 5:40pm Post subject: |
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You make it sound like I was trying to extend on auspice as base, which is wrong. Actually, the most integral parts of KickServices have been rewritten from scratch, like the channel management, or how timeouts are realized, which is only one example for the many things that are not auspice anymore at all.
I suggest you take a look at the 0.59 version that I released on sourceforge. It includes a finally working new block based configuration system, and a new logging facility. Granted, there are a few bugs discovered that have been fixed already (which is also why i declared this version unstable). It's not long anymore until I will have a new stable release, though.
As a matter of fact, I am already working on module support in future versions of these services, the configuration system that I developed last summer has been written with module support in mind. I am also restructuring the startup and initialization routines. When I'm done I guess the most important stuff relies on my design. The hard part is that my studies at universities eat up alot of time, and I sadly will not have much time to spare for development. But I will go on, and for those who doubt me: I haven't had the quickest release cycle, and I know people think I must be crazy starting off an Auspice code base (i guess in retrospect, they're right. I just loved a good challenge), but I think, a constant development effort since Dec/2001, which was the date of my first modifications to these services speaks for itself. |
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w00t
Eleet
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 699
Location: Nowra, Australia
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| Posted: Jun 08, 2005 5:44pm Post subject: |
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Thilo, I can't talk I'm working off something which is similar to auspice, with more obvious problems (even if they are less serious).
What I was trying to say is merely what you said yourself - starting off auspice as a base is rather crazy I did it myself at one stage (and went "pfft" after about 4 weeks).
Wish you the best of luck . |
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marhazk
none
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Somewhere in IntraNet..hehe
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| Posted: Jun 24, 2005 4:08am Post subject: |
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Im using UnrealIRCD and ANOPE, but I prefer Auspice and Anope. Actually, UnrealIRCD can recoded under GNU liecense, BUT Anope is now devel.
Auspice always have problems with its database, especially nick.db. When my network reach to +100-1000, nick.db will crashed and fatal error. Its bad news, right because we need to restart again.
Anope quite ok because its still devel. So, need to wait till Anope 100% stabled. |
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w00t
Eleet
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 699
Location: Nowra, Australia
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| Posted: Jun 24, 2005 7:00am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Im using UnrealIRCD and ANOPE, but I prefer Auspice and Anope. |
Huh? That doesn't make sense. Unreal is an ircd, anope and auspice are both services. Saying you use Anope but prefer Auspice would make sense, I presume that's what you mean?
| Quote: | | Actually, UnrealIRCD can recoded under GNU liecense, BUT Anope is now devel. |
The fact that one branch of anope is currently tagged devel means nothing - there's a devel version of unreal too, it's just in CVS at the moment (3.2.4). Anope is also under the GPL, due to the fact that epona (and before it, espernet/ircservices) are both GPL'd.
| Quote: | | Auspice always have problems with its database, especially nick.db. When my network reach to +100-1000, nick.db will crashed and fatal error. Its bad news, right because we need to restart again. |
Auspice has more problems than that. I've heard it's back under dev, but I think it's to the point where it's unworkable - especially when even thilo's already made such headway over 2.8.1. In Mean might do a better job re-forking ircservices and working the featureset he wants in.
| Quote: | | Anope quite ok because its still devel. So, need to wait till Anope 100% stabled. |
No crash bugs are known in 1.7.10. (minus one or two ircd oddities afaik) It's pretty ok, and from what i know, is the recommended version. I run it myself with no problems. In this case the upsides outweigh the downsides. |
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