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Dead2Sin
none
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 12
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 Posted: Apr 02, 2005 8:34pm Post subject: Fairer ranking |
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| Right now search irc counts servers that are hidden (usually ulined services servers) This is unfair as my network (JesusFreak-IRC) has 4 services bots but some nets such as GodsIRC have 13 service and 3 stat bots. This results in the appearance of a more popular network than it really is and as such is not fair A) to the networks and B) to the users. My suggestion is to come up with a way for scrawl bot to not count hidden servers. Maybe by only counting users on servers on the /map. For most networks they hide ulines. for those that dont this wont do much good but otherwise...who knows..anyone else got a way to make this work? |
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Jason
SearchIRC Developer
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 1181
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2005 10:20pm Post subject: |
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| If you were talking about 50 service bots, I might agree, but 3 is trivial at best. |
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braindigitalis
Idler
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 443
Location: IRC
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2005 5:07am Post subject: |
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| If a network does not hide ulines, theres no way for a non-oper to know which servers are ulined and which are not. |
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Dead2Sin
none
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2005 5:36am Post subject: |
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| I didnt say 3 I said 13 services AND 3 stat |
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Jason
SearchIRC Developer
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 1181
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2005 7:14am Post subject: |
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| What is the function of 13 bots? Is this a standard service package, or one they made/modified? |
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Robert-E-Lee
Idler
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 287
Location: in a room with your mum, teaching her how to do certain things....
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2005 10:57am Post subject: |
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well, there could be many reasons that they have that many.
perhaps they had 13 users create channels and request bots.
perhaps they have custom modules made, and are using the bots for those?
perhaps they are using them to cheat, who knows.
the point is, in order to get around things like that, all that can be discounted are standard services bots, unless there's an edit into the code of the indexers themselves, i'd think, i'm probably wrong because i don't know how jason and co actually work it, but yeah.
different networks work in different ways, imagine if dalnet offered users botserv bots for their channels.. would you consider that to be user spoofing? if not, why consider it to be user spoofing on smaller networks?
*shrug* |
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Jason
SearchIRC Developer
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 1181
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2005 11:09am Post subject: |
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| We don't list networks that intentionally skew their numbers, but as I said above, unless it's like a really small network that has 2 users and 50 bots, it really doesn't matter a great deal. In the grand scheme of things, if dalnet loaded up 50,000 fake bots to appear larger than ircnet, we might have an issue, but 13 bots doesn't mean much. |
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LegendLady
Newbie
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 54
Location: IRC
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 4:35am Post subject: |
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| Jason wrote: | | What is the function of 13 bots? Is this a standard service package, or one they made/modified? |
Ever seen anope package?
their quite royal with their services,
if u load the modules it has aprox 40 bots.. that is EXLUDING NeoStats.
NeoStats has aprox 13.
that is if the full services packages have been loaded. |
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LegendLady
Newbie
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 54
Location: IRC
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 4:36am Post subject: |
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| braindigitalis wrote: | | If a network does not hide ulines, theres no way for a non-oper to know which servers are ulined and which are not. |
mass whois but ya
that'd take alot of bw i think
dunno |
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Roku
Newbie
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 5:36am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Ever seen anope package?
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Ever heard of a snide remark? Making a point is one thing. Insulting ones intelligence is another. Of course people on this board has heard of Anope. If you look around for just a few minutes you'd find that several of the posts are in regards to Anope including one current thread with a poll asking if we are tired of seeing all the Unreal/Anope newbie networks. Not to mention the fact that many of the Anope dev team are members including Beta testers.
An old school netequette(sp?) rule is to hang out on whatever mailing list/forum/usenet group for at least 30 days before you make your first post so that you get the feel for the type of content that's involved.
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if u load the modules it has aprox 40 bots..
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First of all most nets never load every Anope module. This is because some contradict others and some of them are ircd specific. I highly doubt that it would be 40 bots since there is only 140 modules available for Anope and no where near half create their own pseudoclient.
| LegendLady wrote: | | braindigitalis wrote: |
If a network does not hide ulines, theres no way for a non-oper to know which servers are ulined and which are not. |
mass whois but ya
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A /whois output will not determine if the user is from a ulined server. Secondly, not all users from ulined servers are bots. It's just not possible to get an accurate bot count without being an oper.
Also, from my experience most nets would have more client bots such as eggdrop bots than pseudoclients. Having alot of bots is not against SearchIRC's critiria, grossly padding your user count with useless bots/clones is. |
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LegendLady
Newbie
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 54
Location: IRC
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 7:52am Post subject: |
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Well.
After i read this, I had a huge laugh.
It seems we cant talk like adults here, and that is sad.
People can have opinions about things, Cant they?
People may find Anope/Unreal newbish But what is the point of running it?
To have a network right?
Does it really matter what IRCd you run? I dont think so.
140 Modules for Anope?
Google.com will find you additional modules 
Oh and yes
if things are working 100% Perfectly you sure can tell in a whois what services are and what's not. |
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w00t
Eleet
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 699
Location: Nowra, Australia
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 8:10am Post subject: |
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That would of course depend on (if using unreal) whether they have usermode +S set (services client).
Pray tell how you'd tell outside Unreal, and indeed if it didnt have it set which many other automated "server" services (such as ircdefender i believe) are?
That aside, I believe he was more commenting on your tone in your "Ever seen anope package?"
I may not be that well acquainted with Roku, but i'd say he'd be a darn-sight more accomplished with anope's internals than you.
Next, as to the 40 bots- care to name them? I just spent a few minutes whizzing around and I was unable to raise the total count above 10. (I'm meaning *serv here). |
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Roku
Newbie
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 10:53am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
It seems we cant talk like adults here, and that is sad.
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What's funny is you think that aren't talking like adults. It's called debating.
| LegendLady wrote: |
People can have opinions about things, Cant they?
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Sure just don't pass your opinion off as fact.
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140 Modules for Anope?
Google.com will find you additional modules
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Then by your logic I can write 10,000 modules for IRCServices all that generate pseudoclients then claim that IRCServices has 10,000+ Services bots.
The point is that Anope comes with the max of 9 bots .. not 40.
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Oh and yes
if things are working 100% Perfectly you sure can tell in a whois what services are and what's not. |
No you can't. for several reasons.
1. Services server don't have to be named services.your-net.tld
2. *Serv nicks can be changed in the conf file. ie rename chan/nick/memoserv to peter, paul and mary and give them fake addresses
3. BotServ bots can look just like regular clients.
4. Nothing in the standard RFC-1459 /whois output indicates if a server is ulined.
g'day |
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LegendLady
Newbie
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 54
Location: IRC
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 12:01pm Post subject: |
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Kewl-Chat is Bot@BotsWorld.Kewl-Chat.Org * #BotsWorld Bot.
Kewl-Chat is a Network Service
kewl-chat End of /WHOIS list.
Does that look regular?
i dont think so
anyway
U can enable the aliases wich makes it at 16 Bots.
Im talking about the max u can get out of it
not what u SHOULD, but what u can get.
then the additional modules
well out of 140 lets say 20 have pseudo's ?
thats close to 40. |
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Roku
Newbie
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
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| Posted: May 05, 2005 12:13pm Post subject: |
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| LegendLady wrote: | Kewl-Chat is Bot@BotsWorld.Kewl-Chat.Org * #BotsWorld Bot.
Kewl-Chat is a Network Service
kewl-chat End of /WHOIS list.
Does that look regular?
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What your not understanding is that all of that info can be changed, that's my point .. Services bots don't *have* to look like Services Bots. |
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