US Politics and Iraq - a civil conversation between friends.

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353

Well, anyway, arguing how old the US is isn't the point, I was merely pointing that out for accuracy.

The point here is that just because you are older does not automatically make your smarter, which is what katsklaw was implying.

Also, I just want to comment on Mr. Williams remarks. I'm one of the first people yelling at actors when they decide that they are politicians and go on about politics though they probably know less than the average American (which isn't saying much). But, his comments do have a certain logic to them. You're saying he is uninformed. Well, point out his mistakes. Most of what he said is accurate.

To be quite honest, as an American, what really upsets me is the fact that we are constantly saving people from horrible regimes, and what do we get for it? We get people calling our President a "war criminal," people disemboweling our soldiers and dragging their bodies through the streets. People beheading American citizens, etc. I agree with Robin Williams, if you people don't want our help, I have no problem with not giving it. But do remember what the implications of this would be. First off, many of you might not even understand me since you would likely be speaking German. Others wouldn't understand me because they'd be speaking Russian. And others still wouldn't even be able to hear me because they would have been wiped out in mass genocide.

I would also like to respond to Pierce.

aquanight · Lurker Joined: 14 Jun 2004 Posts: 118 Location: Boise, ID

Mary · SearchIRC Admin Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 692

aquanight, I was responding to katsklaw's statement that the US should not present its views as "best" when its only been a nation for 230 years, and there are countries that have existed for 10,000 years.

There are no governments that have lasted 10,000 years. There are very few that have existed for the past 100 years. The US is an outstanding exception. It has one of the oldest CONTINUOUS governments on earth, in existance without interuption since we formed ourselves as an individual nation in the 18th century. We make laws to organize our government and rule the people, but the making of a law, even a complete re-write of our constitution, does not necessarily change our government. We have not gone from Democracy to Anarchy to Monarchy to Dictatorship to Republic as much of the rest of the world has. We began as a Republic, we have stayed a Republic for 230 years. THIS is why we are a superpower.

The world thinks the US goes out looking for trouble. What a good deal of the world misses is the massive demonstrations and lobbying that goes on in our Capitol when political refugees and ambassadors hold up pictures and letters and BEG our government to save their relatives from horrendous humanitarian disasters.

Let me give you three examples.

During the reign of Stalin, thousands of ethnic Turkish Muslims were forced off their lands. They are now stateless, and homeless. They live in Russia but no country will give them citizenship, or work visas, or allow them to settle permanently. The US is airlifting 7000 Ahiska Muslims, living in the Russian province of Krasnodar, to Philidelphia, and settling them in around one of the largest Mosques in the country. They get free housing, free food and clothing, english lessons, job training and placement, and if they are old or disabled, lifelong support, from the US government. Our OWN citizens do not get this. Russia is far bigger and much less populated than the US. Why is the US volunteering to adopt 7000 people from a group that has declared WAR on us? Because a refugee group and a humanitarian group begged Congress to help these people.

Iran has publicly declared their plan to construct nuclear weapons, to use on their neighbor, Israel. Even if Israel was to withdraw from Palestine, they say they will destroy the nation because they want to kill all Jews. Israel is a small, densely populated country. Many of their residents are natives of Europe and the US. A nuclear weapon will kill hundreds of thousands of people, wound millions, and cause untold damage to property, making large parts of Israel uninhabitable for years. Iran has now broken UN seals on nuclear equipment and is constucting a facility which will provide them with the material for their bombs. Despite sitting on some of the richest oil fields in the world, the Iranians have told the UN that the nuclear activites are to provide power. If Israel defends itself, its Arab neighbors will attack. Should the US act, or do you agree with the Imams and Hitler that it is righteous to kill all Jews?

In the Sudan, the government is funding janjaweed militia to kill black muslims and animists in the southern part of the country. While publicly stating the situation is out of their hands, government literature staunchly defends the attacks, stating these people are nothing more than animals and the land they occupy rightfully belongs to northern Arabs by right of conquest. With money from the Middle East, they are funding militias that have killed tens of thousands of people, sold women into slavery throughout the middle east, and hundreds of thousands are facing starvation after being thrown off their lands. Now, the janjaweed are tying men, women and children to fences, dousing them with gasoline, and buring them alive. The government refuses to allow Humanitarian Aid into the country to feed the displaced people who are starving and overcome with disease. The UN has censored the genocide, but wants to give the government more "time" to sort out their problems. In this situation, "time" will only allow those "problems" to be slaughtered to extinction. Should the US act, or is it righteous to kill black people and take their land?

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think you will find one person in the US who WANTS 7000 impoverished tribal muslims moving into their town and onto their welfare roles. No one wants to face off with Iran over nuclear weapons that they plan on using on their neighbor. We really don't want to send troops into the Sudan to make that government stop killing its own citizens.

No more than we wanted to go into Iraq.

So, I am asking each one of you who does not live in the US, to please petition YOUR government to settle these problems. Don't ignore them, or leave the mess for some other country. You must take it upon yourself alone, to ELIMINATE them. Philidelphia is a small town by European standards. Its smaller than Rotterdam, Manchester, or Nice. So you are just as able to take in those 7000 people, give them furnished apartments, educate them, provide health care, and provide lifelong support, as the taxpayers of Philidelphia. The UN has told Iran to stop making nuclear weapons, and they won't. So someone has to go in there and destroy the equipment. I am sure a few hundred thousand young people from your country will volunteer to save the lives of a million innocents. Certainly you cannot let the Sudan stand. Tying children to fences and burning them alive in front of their parents, then killing the parents too?! This is not right. Immediately - and I mean NOW, you need to raise an army and go in there and stop the janjaweed, and those who are behind them. Then millions of these poor, poor, people need to be fed, housed, and resettled. Do that, will you please?

If you cannot, or will not, then all we ask is, save the criticism, the Bushitler rhetoric, the US is evil nonsense, and show some appreciation when we spend our money and risk our lives.

Talrias · Lurker Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 163 Location: :noitacoL

The UK has had a monarchy for at least 1000 years, disrupted once when Oliver Cromwell took over, and after he died, the monarchy was returned (the new King, Charles II, was the son of the previous king, Charles I).

Chris

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353

mregit, well said. I agree with you 100% but to everyone else, just keep in mind that the examples he provided are a small subset of the problems going on it the world.

Mary · SearchIRC Admin Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 692

Pierce, read this -
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

The website was not made by a Bush supporter. Its author is a Naderite.

Pierce · none Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Posts: 47

Okay, the last time i checked the definition of what superpower was, is anybody with Nuclear capability,

that would include

USA,
Britain,
France,
Germany,
And Russia

AKA the big 5. (Nuclear capability, as in the ability to launch Nuclear weapons)

Technically yes, your right, they didnt flatten the city of Iraq, nor did they kill millions of people, but my other point of the idea of "one shot one kill", you dont need to drop that many bombs to liberate Iraq, why not have people go undercover, where they take out important targets one at a time? Theirs enough video footage to show that important figures in Iraq would be in the public enough to do such a thing.

Ah yes the god given right of resolution 1441. Well, then why did the UN vote on a decision not to take action, which was when the US decided to go it alone with britain.

I could get nasty and say Americans are capable of doing the same horrible things that Saddam has done. The vietnahm war, were asian people were shot dead in the middle of the street for no reason, the picture of the person who stood infront of a cascade of tanks, and do you know how long people had to live when they were droped by the chopers into vietnahm? It was 5 damn minutes average life span on the killing fields. Then we could go to Al Queada, the way they were handled as prisioners, their religion and beliefs were violated by their beards being shaved off, kept in the darkness with cotten and tape around their heads and the UN saying it was agains the War Treatyies that give people certain rights, but the Us down played it saying they were not prisioners of war, but prisioners of crime because they were not a country but a terriorist organisation. Then we get really gritty, bagdad prisions, where peoples rights were violated even more, taken pictures of naked with the military personal there posing gestures further adding to the discrace. Now dont try to say, they were acting against the wishes of the US, because they have gotten home, and their defence is in trial "because my superior told me to do it" whois the superior? Thats right the CEO of the US. So dont say saddam does it, without acknoloaging your own back yard has its own problems too.

In 1998, quite a few things happend, and Bill Clinton was in charge, if you remember bosnia was heating up around then and Iraq used that as breathing space to get rid of the UN inspectors, "nothing like a bad day to burry bad news" true'er words were never spoken. Bush sending them back into Iraq must of been his best judgement sence he was elected.

They teach us that, "The only thing we learn from history, is that history repeats itself" a bit against the grain here, considering history is ment to learn from its self not repeat. Other things would be "man is born free yet everywhere he goes, he is in chains" or "some are more equal than others" democracy cannot exist, the purest form of it, as in communism has proven that their has to be a leader or nothing would get done.

To Liberate, what a funny thing. If US is soo concerned with liberation, why is northern ireland still a sticky topic, or why is cuba still stuck under trade bans, or how about the US?, maybe the rest of the world should liberate you, because the US is under control from somebody who didnt get full authorisation and support from the UN to start war, or the US citezens didnt get to have a vote on wheater or not to go to war? Hell zimbabway is under rule from a dictator, which has forced hundreads of white people out of the country, they need liberation too.

Define freedom, is freedom to live in a country that is occupied by several military forces, to live in fear that you cant go on a bus, walk down the street without knowing in the back of your mind, that a car bomb could go off?

And are you 100% sure saddam if found innocent wouldnt be re-elected at a later date back into power?

Bush wont ever be found a war criminal, for the simple reason he was somebody important.

Respected, hmm i guess you would go to a surgeon to have some life-saving operation done on you if he didnt have much respect in the medical profession?, i guess i only use your IRCD, because i dont respect Unreal, you or its staff? and i guess presidents of the united states get elected because they dont have any respect at all, hell thats why the go threw several months of promotion to get votes and uhh, whats the other thing? oh yeah respect? But your right, if you do anything for respect its a bad idea, as its usualy a bi-product of what your doing, but it should be kept in mind what it will do to your current ammount of respect.

Buy not looking up to the US, alot of countries take the US as a role model, but i was refering to your pressious flag, that you salute every day. Which stands for respect, pride and honour, which have all been dented sence the invasion of iraq.

Your also right about it preventing something if your afraid to be disrespectful, but the question is do you total disregard everybody elses opinion in order to get something done? I dont think so.

It surprises me even more codemastr, The united stats of america's history is only 250 years long, and should be easly compressed to an A4, yet you seem to forget your backyards history. In comparison to the oranges of the Roman empire it can be expressed by a very very small fraction. My opinions are not biased, if they were, i would say, "you retards you should not of invaded iraq" But would i be saying this if the US had at least the support of France and Germany, NO i wouldnt, i would be alot more supportive, and if you did, this post would of been about, look how the US has the balls to do it, to ask the hard questions and get the support. Would it of hurt to wait another 18 months to be 100% sure, do that bit more sure. As the carpenter says, measure twice, cut once. My facts were not wrong, just because you missed the last 45minutes of the documentary, and only seen the last 15 minutes.

And remember, i dont hate, blame or bad feelings against the people of the States, they are good people. My feelings are towards the goverment of it.

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353

Pierce · none Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Posts: 47

well, im truly sorry you feel that way.

Pierce

Jason · Posted: Jul 29, 2004 3:50pm Post subject:

Mary · SearchIRC Admin Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 692

Talrias · Lurker Joined: 16 Feb 2004 Posts: 163 Location: :noitacoL

Pierce · none Joined: 09 Feb 2004 Posts: 47

Im very sorry to hear that story about your cousin, these are the reasons why you shouldnt go to war, why it should be a last resort.

I would like to say sorry to codemastr, not for what i said, and not what i believe. But for starting this argument. I should take the advice of my mother which was "dont talk about politics or religion", and your also right, the states did to the right thing in the long run, and it will be respected for doing it too.

Jason, yes the idea of shaving off peoples beards, which is against their religion, cannot be compared to the chopping off heads, or taking another persons life. What about musliems, would you feed them a full irish breakfast? Allow them to take part in Ramadan? I dont want to mention these things because they are only trivial compared to the brutality mentioned.

Yes, mregit, your right, its absolutly horrible what any nationality can come to. If i were asked which army i would fear most in this world, it would not be the US's even though it is the biggest in the world. It would be korean, vietnam, or cambodian. The reason for this is that at least a US troop would think about what hes doing before he takes action. Where as the 3 i mentioned, would just kill you and think nothing of it. It does sicken me that people at the age of 18 are put into the war.

My cousin who was in the US getting educated, was curious about the $50 a day/week (im not sure) to sign up to the army. Why wouldnt he it would be free money. Uppon further investigation he found out that the people who took the $50 a day to sign up to the war would be the first people up on the lines, used as cannon fodder.

And of course the media twisting the reality of what really happened.

The video of them cutting a prisoners head off, and then praising Allah, was evil to say the least, the translation of what he said when he took out the blade to cut off his head was "in god we trust", read that anywhere lately?

The tactics that are used by these countries which was originaly created by the irish. The idea of hideing into the bush until you strike, and then disapear back into the bush. Its an extreamly effective, but violent method of doing it. Which is what the miniority groups in Iraq are doing now. Did you know it was the IRA who trained al-Queda originaly?

For the Bosnia war, where Bill Clintion initated war on Bosnia to get another war criminal

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/nbos000.htm

Saddam pushed UN inspecters out of iraq during that time, mainly because the rest of the world was focused on bosnia, and not iraq at the time.

What about the congos? In the last 4 years 4.5 million peole have died yet i see no mention of this in any news

http://www.worldrevolution.org/article/763

And finaly i wish to apploigise to anybody i may of offended. The reason I sound like i have anger or twisted logic, is because im angry at my own country. Ireland is a nutral country which was violated because US military aircraft were allowed to land here, so they could carry 2 more ton of weapons across the atlantic. All our troops do is preserv peace, we dont have much of an army to boost of, our air force can be seen in museums. I also just cannot agree with any war, sending 18 year olds to fight a war they have nothing to do with is plain and simple wrong. Ill admit that my views are highly biased, and yes war on both sides its horrible.

But i have one question, with the inteligence now wrong that Iraq doesnt have weapons of mass destruction, they cant launch in 45minutes and they have no links with al-Queada. And the biggest thing, the loss of american troops, and other countrie troops. Turn the clock back 19 months, would you still want to go to war?

Pierce

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353