Unreal channel modes

uchat · Idler Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 335

I know what it means.

My point is that not all IRC newbies use Unreal .. and not all Unreal users are IRC newbies.

djcrash · none Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 7

not all, but most

uchat · Idler Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 335

can you prove it? If not .. then it's just speculation.

w00t · Posted: Jun 10, 2004 7:44pm Post subject: Re: ffs

Thrall · none Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 34

i'll judge whoever i want to judge, sliq, and not a god damn thing you say will ever change that. However, as soon as you opened your trap and started whineing, you gave everyone the right to judge you. Stop acting like a whiney 13 year old school girl brat and start to learn how you can change things for yourself.

www.google.com - use this before your next whiney complaint about something you don't like about someone elses work, better yet - don't bother using it if you don't like it.

ed · Posted: Jun 11, 2004 6:36am Post subject:

Do not continue to make posts if they are off-topic or rants. Your post will be deleted if you do.

(This is a general message to anyone thinking about posting to this thread)

Ashen · Idler Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 285

------------------- IRC Evolution ----------------------------------

My theory of IRC is that it operates similarly to Darwin's theory of evolution.
Put simply, irc is diverse, and this diversity leads to quality.
It also means it has a wider appeal. Since quality is defined by the user, diversity in the product
means the user is more likely to get what they want.

This diversity is probably the greatest strength of the IRC protocol, imho.

Diversity can work like this:
1) A is created.
2) A is copied. B, C and D are created.
3) B, C and D develop along their own lines, to form things quite different to A.
4) Someone comes along and realises A, B, C and D each have their strengths and faults.
He thus takes all of the good bits out of A, B, C and D and uses them to create a hybrid,
A2, which is superior to all of them.
5) A2 becomes the new A, and we return to step 1.

This process leads to the concentration of good code, useful features, and things people want
whilst discarding their opposites. In short - it produces a better quality product.
This is what is happening on IRC right now, with regards to ircds, network philosophies,
and the various different bits that go into running an irc server/network.
Over time, this means we all get better quality stuff Smile

The theory above is a simplified version of what I think really happens in IRC - what really
happens is that many chains of 1-5 are in progress at any given time, and they use each
other's products as their start points, in their development, and as their end points.
This is what I mean by 'the evolution of IRC'.

------------------------- Unreal as an example of this evolution -------------------

Unreal is a good example of this theory.
Lots of people either love Unreal or hate it.
Personally, I think Unreal performs a very valuable function in the IRC community.
Its doing things that have not been done before exposes people to new ideas and methods.
It thus triggers people into thinking about what they want in an ircd,
more then they would if fewer options were avalible. It promotes thinking.
It forces admins to make hard choices about what commands (like sajoin) they
want to keep and what they want to toss out. By making hard ethical choices,
it helps admins to develop ethically - or at least be able to find a reason for their actions.

In short, it makes people think and, though controversial, is successful because fundamentally,
people *want* it that way. Where there is freedom, and there are people, there will be
a diversity of outcome, as each chases their own dreams. Where there is diversity, the theory
of evolution will mean the best will start being more successful then the rest.

I realise that I can't hold the features of Unreal (such as sajoin) against the coders of unreal,
much like I can't hold the maker of a gun responsible when that gun shoots someone.
Fundamentally, it is the admin who uses sajoin who is responsible, just as it is the criminal who
fires the gun who is responsible, not the sajoin command, not the gun itself. The gun is just
a tool, sajoin is just a tool, and final responsibility rests with the user not the toolmaker.

Every ircd does things differently. If you create diversity, and allow people to choose freely,
then the best will rise to the top as it is naturally superior and will be chosen above the
competition. This is what is happening with Unreal - people are choosing it over other ircds
because they LIKE it.

I don't like some of the things Unreal does. However, I think out of all ircds, it is perhaps the
most valuable as it creates a lot of discussion on ethics and proper running of an ircd that
would otherwise simply not happen in the IRC world.
I'm much more pro-Unreal then I was before reading this topic, thanks to the most
excellent points of codemastr.

I can appreciate one part of a thing, yet dislike another part of the same thing.
I can like something for one reason yet dislike the same thing for another reason.

In reality, things are not as one-sided as they often appear to be, and with almost any thing,
there are pros and cons.

Weighing up the pros and cons of Unreal is a very valuable exercise for a prospective server
admin - as it forces them to do much valuable thinking, and be much more aware.
It also creates very interesting discussion in the IRC community.

-------------------------------------- Summary --------------------------------------

In short:
1)
Unreal - love it or hate it - it's existance is helping the irc community becuase it forces us to
think, to evaluate, to be careful and to start justifying our beliefs about what is right/wrong.
2)
IRC is wonderfully diverse and this is its greatest strength. We must recognise this and not
tar large swathes of a thing with the same brush. e.g. In Unreal - I dislike sajoin/+qa, but I
like the fact it has spamfilters, easy spoofing for opers and protection for services clients.
I can take Unreal apart - taking from it what I think is valuable and disregarding what I think
is not valuable. By doing this, I can contribute to the overall development of IRC by
exapanding the diversity and concentrating the good.
3) Try not to think in terms of "this thing X is good" VS "this thing X is bad".
Try to think in terms of "This thing X has good features A, B and C I like, but bad features
D,E and F that I don't like. How can I get the best return of good features over bad ones?"
This is how IRC advances - and when people do this, they get away from the silly flamewars
that accompany the "your ircd sucks!" "no it doesn't!" "yes it does!" "no it doesn't!" type
of discussion, and they actually help IRC as a whole develop.

This is my take on IRC, and IRCD development.
Yeah, it's all very philosophical. It might reflect my methods of thinking more then how IRC
actually works.... the fact my method of thinking influences how I understand things is, to a
point, unavoidable. I hope I've helped people understand why it is better to think about things
more fully and to work for a better solution then it is to simply argue over which ircd is better.

I'll sign off with a link to Rootless Root:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/

-Ashen

Ashen · Idler Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 285

------------------- IRC Evolution --------------- -------------------

My theory of IRC is that it operates similarly to Darwin's theory of evolution.
Put simply, irc is diverse, and this diversity leads to quality.
It also means it has a wider appeal. Since quality is defined by the user, diversity in the product
means the user is more likely to get what they want.

This diversity is probably the greatest strength of the IRC protocol, imho.

Diversity can work like this:
1) A is created.
2) A is copied. B, C and D are created.
3) B, C and D develop along their own lines, to form things quite different to A.
4) Someone comes along and realises A, B, C and D each have their strengths and faults.
He thus takes all of the good bits out of A, B, C and D and uses them to create a hybrid,
A2, which is superior to all of them.
5) A2 becomes the new A, and we return to step 1.

This process leads to the concentration of good code, useful features, and things people want
whilst discarding their opposites. In short - it produces a better quality product.
This is what is happening on IRC right now, with regards to ircds, network philosophies,
and the various different bits that go into running an irc server/network.
Over time, this means we all get better quality stuff Smile

The theory above is a simplified version of what I think really happens in IRC - what really
happens is that many chains of 1-5 are in progress at any given time, and they use each
other's products as their start points, in their development, and as their end points.
This is what I mean by 'the evolution of IRC'.

------------------------- Unreal as an example of this evolution -------------------

Unreal is a good example of this theory.
Lots of people either love Unreal or hate it.
Personally, I think Unreal performs a very valuable function in the IRC community.
Its doing things that have not been done before exposes people to new ideas and methods.
It thus triggers people into thinking about what they want in an ircd,
more then they would if fewer options were avalible. It promotes thinking.
It forces admins to make hard choices about what commands (like sajoin) they
want to keep and what they want to toss out. By making hard ethical choices,
it helps admins to develop ethically - or at least be able to find a reason for their actions.

In short, it makes people think and, though controversial, is successful because fundamentally,
people *want* it that way. Where there is freedom, and there are people, there will be
a diversity of outcome, as each chases their own dreams. Where there is diversity, the theory
of evolution will mean the best will start being more successful then the rest.

I realise that I can't hold the features of Unreal (such as sajoin) against the coders of unreal,
much like I can't hold the maker of a gun responsible when that gun shoots someone.
Fundamentally, it is the admin who uses sajoin who is responsible, just as it is the criminal who
fires the gun who is responsible, not the sajoin command, not the gun itself. The gun is just
a tool, sajoin is just a tool, and final responsibility rests with the user not the toolmaker.

Every ircd does things differently. If you create diversity, and allow people to choose freely,
then the best will rise to the top as it is naturally superior and will be chosen above the
competition. This is what is happening with Unreal - people are choosing it over other ircds
because they LIKE it.

I don't like some of the things Unreal does. However, I think out of all ircds, it is perhaps the
most valuable as it creates a lot of discussion on ethics and proper running of an ircd that
would otherwise simply not happen in the IRC world.
I'm much more pro-Unreal then I was before reading this topic, thanks to the most
excellent points of codemastr.

I can appreciate one part of a thing, yet dislike another part of the same thing.
I can like something for one reason yet dislike the same thing for another reason.

In reality, things are not as one-sided as they often appear to be, and with almost any thing,
there are pros and cons.

Weighing up the pros and cons of Unreal is a very valuable exercise for a prospective server
admin - as it forces them to do much valuable thinking, and be much more aware.
It also creates very interesting discussion in the IRC community.

In short:
1)
Unreal - love it or hate it - it's existance is helping the irc community becuase it forces us to
think, to evaluate, to be careful and to start justifying our beliefs about what is right/wrong.
2)
IRC is wonderfully diverse and this is its greatest strength. We must recognise this and not
tar large swathes of a thing with the same brush. e.g. In Unreal - I dislike sajoin/+qa, but I
like the fact it has spamfilters, easy spoofing for opers and protection for services clients.
I can take Unreal apart - taking from it what I think is valuable and disregarding what I think
is not valuable. By doing this, I can contribute to the overall development of IRC by
exapanding the diversity and concentrating the good.
3) Try not to think in terms of "this thing X is good" VS "this thing X is bad".
Try to think in terms of "This thing X has good features A, B and C I like, but bad features
D,E and F that I don't like. How can I get the best return of good features over bad ones?"
This is how IRC advances - and when people do this, they get away from the silly flamewars
that accompany the "your ircd sucks!" "no it doesn't!" "yes it does!" "no it doesn't!" type
of discussion, and they actually help IRC as a whole develop.

This is my take on IRC, and IRCD development.
Yeah, it's all very philosophical. It might reflect my methods of thinking more then how IRC
actually works.... the fact my method of thinking influences how I understand things is, to a
point, unavoidable. I hope I've helped people understand why it is better to think about things
more fully and to work for a better solution then it is to simply argue over which ircd is better.

I'll sign off with a link to Rootless Root:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/

-Ashen

codemastr · Idler Joined: 05 Feb 2004 Posts: 353

I'd have to agree with just about everything Ashen said. IRC does evolve has he described. And I can provide real examples. Many of the features in Unreal were not original. They were taken from other IRCds. The reason we take them is because we found them nice, and our users found them nice. Then, as they become popular in Unreal, they slowly make their way into mainstream. I guess we're more willing to experiment with new ideas than other IRCds are. Just some examples:

- The new "block" style configuration format.
We didn't create this, in fact, our code is heavily based on the code from Comstud IRCd. However, you'll notice that now most IRCds use similar configuration files. Hybrid, Bahamut, and ircu have all decided it's a better way to go.

- Halfops
I forget which IRCd we took this from, probably a Hybrid variant, but it's no longer a "strange" feature. It's common.

- +e
This was taken from IRCnet. And again, it's becoming much more popular. Hybrid and Bahamut both support this now.

- operoverride
The basics of oper override have existed for a long time. Since Dreamforge a /samode command has existed. And like it or hate it, this is catching on. Bahamut 1.8.x adds a /sajoin command that allows an oper to join any channel, regardless of modes.

- module support
Well this one wasn't really taken from another IRCd, more from other programs, like Apache. But now, it's everywhere! Hybrid and Bahamut both have very robust module systems, and I'm sure this is something that will appear in more and more IRCds over time.

People do have different ideas about where IRC should go. I usually get a good laugh when I read they Hybrid mailing lists because they are always badmouthing Unreal. However, you slowly start to notice Unreal's features creeping into other IRCds.

But there is a good reason why we add more stuff than other IRCds, we have a much larger userbase. Bahamut, though in use by many servers, is designed for DALnet. I'm sure they listen to users' requests, but the main user is DALnet. If DALnet wants something, it gets added. If DALnet doesn't want it, then it isn't added. Same with ircu, and Hybrid. They are designed primarily for a single network. Unreal is different. It has no home-base network that it is designed for. It is designed to meet the needs of as many people as possible. As a result, we add more things because our users have a diverse set of needs. Then, as these features catch on in Unreal and are deemed, "useful," they make their way into other IRCds. You can see it beginning now. I've seen numerous Bahamut and Hybrid users who have asked the coders of those IRCds to add something similar to Unreal's spamfilter system. At the moment, they say no, but I don't think that will last forever. Once the idea is proven, it will be more widely used. Right now people still think the goal is censorship, it isn't. The goal is to stop spam and viruses, and I think that is something everyone wants.

But don't get me wrong, there are those ideas that are bad and die. The prime example to me was +I. It never caught on, and eventually the processes of natural selection took over and +I ceased to exist. So it does go both ways. We don't always add these super great features, sometimes our judgement is impaired, and we add stuff that is later removed.

uchat · Idler Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 335

I love Unreal for the fact that you can disable or turn off just about everything! Makes the IRCd highly customizable and scalable. Being on DALnet for nearly a decade I got real used to DreamForge/Bahamut and how streamlined it is. However, when I found that I can strip Unreal down to make it as small and streamline as Bahamut, then add whatever I felt I needed without know any coding at all ... I fell in love with it. 10 nets can run Unreal and all 10 be completely unique. That's powerful.

Are there things that you would have to code out if you didn't like in Unreal? ... ABSOLUTELY, but that statement holds true for EVERY ircd, not just Unreal. Which is why I still can't understand why this thread was started in the first place.

djcrash · none Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 7

Unreal is like Windows. Does Windows evolve, sure it does. But, each evolution doesn't make it better, each new version makes it a little bit prettier and adds a few new pointless features (like Remote Assistance) and the actual quality of the product declines, which the end user doesn't care about. The average joeuser's dont care if Windows XP has more security holes than bill gates has money, they buy it anyway because it's the newest and the prettiest, and because its easier to use, that is great for Microsoft, but bad for the computer industry as a whole. It's the same exact thing for Unreal, unreal keeps getting easier to use so that more people use it, and so that more people can figure out how to use it, which makes Unreal one of the biggest IRCd's out there. However, if people dont learn how to do it the hard way first and take shortcuts all the time, then they dont KNOW how to run an ircd, they know how to execute a file and answer some questions. Perfect example, a friend that I knew got expelled because he installed Unreal on one of the computers at his school and had his network running off of his school's connection. If he had had to actually configure the IRCd properly and not be able to set it up with shortcuts, he probably wouldn't even have known how to do it, but because he didnt feel like he had to LEARN how an IRCd actually works and why installing an ircd on a schools network was stupid he got into trouble. and he STILL cant install and configure anything except Unreal on Windows. It's people like that, who dont bother to learn the more advanced parts of IRCd configuration because they don't have to, they are the ones who are bringing down the IRC community slowly and steadily

sliq · Newbie Joined: 02 Jan 2004 Posts: 92 Location: IRC

Amen Crash, and the guy who did that, his mom had a chat with me and crash, she will never allow him to get on IRC for the rest of his life. All thanks to Unreal's "easy-to-$^#%ing-install" system.

anifinder · none Joined: 14 Oct 2003 Posts: 28

Don't blame the software for your friend's ignorance. If your friend hadn't blatantly disregarded the school's policy for computer use, he wouldn't have gotten expelled.

uchat · Idler Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 335

First off, ALL OS's are getting easier, prettier with more holes ... you can not sit there tell me that Linux or Mac is just as ugly and hard as it was 10 years ago! If you try I will call you a liar to your face!

Secondly, I have yet to see ANY IRCd that is any harder nor easier for that fact to install as Unreal. All IRCd's have to be compiled .. all have to be configured. If you think for one second that Unreal is the only IRCd for windows you are sadly mistaken.

Thirdly, lets quit with the vague references and type it all out ... what SPECIFICLLY is so easy about installing Unreal that isn't done in ANY other IRCd.

<sarcasm>
Aww anifinder, didn't you know that it's never a persons fault? ... Guns kill ... Rock and Roll is evil ... Judas Priest causes suicides ... movies make people think they can fly ... and don't forget that IRCd's causes you to get expelled.
</sarcasm>

nuf said.

Ashen · Idler Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 285

I *think* what gives Unreal its easy to install reputation is that:
1) it uses a BIND-style config file.
(this is not unique, other ircds are now doing this, but Unreal did it awhile ago)
2) some shell providers preinstall it
3) it has a lot more documentation then some other ircds.

I think these things are what give it the 'easy to install' rep that it has.
I agree with uchat though - all software is getting easier to use and Unreal isn't especially easy now when compared with other big ircds.

-Ashen